Finally they are admitting there will be no deal?

[GerryT]

It could end up being a war of attrition of sorts, but in the end I think it overall benefits the EU, myself. Anyway I hope your business does alright as you mentioned it once or twice, not sure what industry you're in.

I should be ok, most product moved to non UK suppliers bar one, I'm in building automation, the controller & IO comes from UK so harder to switch as tech support is involved, but if all else failed I can get the same product from Europe but it's a matter of building relationships.

I LOVE the hypocrisy of that Ratcliffe Brexiter guy moving his stuff abroad, gotta love them haven't ya. Total hypocrites one and all those Brexiter billionaires and top businessfolk.

Not the only one, Reese Mogg moved a sizeable chunk of his business to Dublin. Dyson does hugh investment outside the UK and moved his HQ to singapore, there's no manufacturing in the UK anymore, just R&D, how long will that last under a hard brexit.

[GerryT]

I don't think you understand what is happening here, the U.K. will come out of this in a good position one way or the other. The EU will have a resurgent U.K. on its doorstep and unable to influence how we trade with the rest of the world.

in your opinion based on what, a hunch, the past empire. Can you explain how it works. Let's say there's a hard brexit, the UK goes on WTO and the WTO tariffs are put on your imports, prices rise for people and companies supply lines for parts. Then every country out there imposes tariffs on your exports making it hard to sell against the local competition, So increased costs and increased selling prices, tough one.
But you have the upside, you have a blue passport.

Not that I watch football but I remember Ferguson calling Man City noisy neighbours, how did that turn out?

And you think that's a good analogy, a sport that's majority influenced by a clubs bank balance and City gets an owner with a family fortune of 1 Trillion, making City the wealthiest club's in the world. How does that compare to world trade and the UK leaving the largest FTA in the world, pissing off the Chinese and rubbing up the Americans.

If one EU boat drops a net insider waters they are breaking international law, do you think Mr Frenchy fisherman is going to stick to the rules? No they are not....
I suppose it's one way of re-equipping the U.K. fleet by confiscating French trawlers.

Yes and the same the other way around. UK currently catches 100b a yr in EU waters.

Where are you going to sell all this fish.

[Borg Refinery]

I agree that some EU countries will benefit in certain areas, such as some manufacturing and financial services moving from the UK. But the EU itself is damaged by a hard brexit, loosing a FTA trading partner to WTO does not benefit EU exporters or Importers and Europe is now again divided. 
Jan 1 is just the start of the story, not the finish. If this were a film we would be just 5min in at this stage, waiting for the plot to thicken and the twists and turns to unfold. If and it looks more like a strong possibility that the UK leaves with a hard brexit, then the UK needs to decide. Are we going to spend the next 50yrs trading with countries within arms reach on WTO or are the UK going to look to agree a FTA. AND any FTA the UK looks to agree with large trading blocks such as USA/China/EU will require stronger commitments such as level playing field and dispute resolution mechanisms.

It could end up being a war of attrition of sorts, but in the end I think it overall benefits the EU, myself. Anyway I hope your business does alright as you mentioned it once or twice, not sure what industry you're in.

I LOVE the hypocrisy of that Ratcliffe Brexiter guy moving his stuff abroad, gotta love them haven't ya. Total hypocrites one and all those Brexiter billionaires and top businessfolk.

[Nick]

I agree that some EU countries will benefit in certain areas, such as some manufacturing and financial services moving from the UK. But the EU itself is damaged by a hard brexit, loosing a FTA trading partner to WTO does not benefit EU exporters or Importers and Europe is now again divided. 
Jan 1 is just the start of the story, not the finish. If this were a film we would be just 5min in at this stage, waiting for the plot to thicken and the twists and turns to unfold. If and it looks more like a strong possibility that the UK leaves with a hard brexit, then the UK needs to decide. Are we going to spend the next 50yrs trading with countries within arms reach on WTO or are the UK going to look to agree a FTA. AND any FTA the UK looks to agree with large trading blocks such as USA/China/EU will require stronger commitments such as level playing field and dispute resolution mechanisms.

I don't think you understand what is happening here, the U.K. will come out of this in a good position one way or the other. The EU will have a resurgent U.K. on its doorstep and unable to influence how we trade with the rest of the world.

Not that I watch football but I remember Ferguson calling Man City noisy neighbours, how did that turn out?

If one EU boat drops a net insider waters they are breaking international law, do you think Mr Frenchy fisherman is going to stick to the rules? No they are not....
I suppose it's one way of re-equipping the U.K. fleet by confiscating French trawlers.

[GerryT]

That's it mate, the key word there is 'adults'. The pointless and childish, petulant and inane rambling that's spouted / thrown about on here underlines the point well, but this country just doesn't behave like a normal country with grown-up politicians. Neither do most of the so called political commentariat with amateur degrees from the university of twatter, or facebook .. or ryaln clark and stacey solomoan. Our country net benefits from being in the EU to the tune of many, many billions versus the hit of No-Deal Brexit as study after study has found despite being repeatedly ignored by the majority of this country. Fair enough, that's up to them.

Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't leave, people voted virtually for no-deal Brexit in December 2019 and that's exactly what should be enacted, no matter how much it hurts us. It's like if you're an honourable Japanese warrior in the 18th century and make a gentleman's promise to commit seppuku essentially. But it benefits mainly the EU which you must be rubbing your hands with glee about.

I agree that some EU countries will benefit in certain areas, such as some manufacturing and financial services moving from the UK. But the EU itself is damaged by a hard brexit, loosing a FTA trading partner to WTO does not benefit EU exporters or Importers and Europe is now again divided. 

All of that is all well and good, but you know, we will get people who don't understand basic economics telling us what's what.

I think ultimately a lot of trade can be picked off from this country, but again that's been underlined in multi studies all of which have been ignored. Anyway, no deal brexit it is Gerry, there's no point fighting it - we've decided and we're going with it regardless of consequence and you can't say fairer than that.

What intelligence? They appear to have none where Brexit negotiations or everything else is concerned.

Jan 1 is just the start of the story, not the finish. If this were a film we would be just 5min in at this stage, waiting for the plot to thicken and the twists and turns to unfold. If and it looks more like a strong possibility that the UK leaves with a hard brexit, then the UK needs to decide. Are we going to spend the next 50yrs trading with countries within arms reach on WTO or are the UK going to look to agree a FTA. AND any FTA the UK looks to agree with large trading blocks such as USA/China/EU will require stronger commitments such as level playing field and dispute resolution mechanisms.

[GerryT]

I watched a bit of Parliament today and the rhetoric really is ramping up towards no trade deal. Lots of cheers whenever this was mooted.
Whether this is psy-ops in preparation for tonight's tete-a-tete I don't know, but I would have thought after all these months the original sticking points are still the same sticking points, so firmly entrenched.
Maybe tomorrow morning will see an announcement.

I agree, Barnier had said Wed would be the last day unless their was progress. Johnson isn't getting to meet the chief negioater, Leyen doesn't have any ability to negioate on behalf of the EU, she's got a prominent position but at the end of the day she's a EU civil Servant. Decisions are made by the Commission and Barnier is the one tasked with leading the talks, as far as the EU is concerned he's doing a great Job.

If Johnson was going to move then there was no reason for the announcement to remove the clauses from the IMB yesterday, as a deal would have been a legitimate reason to remove them.
If there is no deal then Johnson should be pushing through the IMB bill with the clauses as he promised so as to keep restriction free trade with NI.  My take on it is by removing the clauses yesterday he will make it far easier to announce "as the eu won't make a deal we will leave with no deal", there will be no issues or questions about how this is illegal and breaking the WA/GFA. So his path is clear. It is looking like no deal

[Borg Refinery]

Do you have a point ?  It's be said hundreds of times the EU bends and adjusts all the time if your a member. Every country has an issue at some point or another and the EU deals with this in it's own way. It's not what some in the UK think, as if it's a bureaucratic bully beating down it's members. Look at the actions of Hungary and Poland. If your suggesting it's just the Germans that get away with this your very wrong, the two biggest receivers in the EU break many rules. The EU doesn't look to immediately punish them and this is one of the great strengths of the EU. Some members take longer than others to adopt a new law or change, this is in cases acceptable. Current country leaders come and go and the EU project being led by adults will grow stronger and survive. The UK should try it for a change.

That's it mate, the key word there is 'adults'. The pointless and childish, petulant and inane rambling that's spouted / thrown about on here underlines the point well, but this country just doesn't behave like a normal country with grown-up politicians. Neither do most of the so called political commentariat with amateur degrees from the university of twatter, or facebook .. or ryaln clark and stacey solomoan. Our country net benefits from being in the EU to the tune of many, many billions versus the hit of No-Deal Brexit as study after study has found despite being repeatedly ignored by the majority of this country. Fair enough, that's up to them.

Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't leave, people voted virtually for no-deal Brexit in December 2019 and that's exactly what should be enacted, no matter how much it hurts us. It's like if you're an honourable Japanese warrior in the 18th century and make a gentleman's promise to commit seppuku essentially. But it benefits mainly the EU which you must be rubbing your hands with glee about.

All of that is all well and good, but you know, we will get people who don't understand basic economics telling us what's what.

I think ultimately a lot of trade can be picked off from this country, but again that's been underlined in multi studies all of which have been ignored. Anyway, no deal brexit it is Gerry, there's no point fighting it - we've decided and we're going with it regardless of consequence and you can't say fairer than that.

What intelligence? They appear to have none where Brexit negotiations or everything else is concerned.

[Barry]

I watched a bit of Parliament today and the rhetoric really is ramping up towards no trade deal. Lots of cheers whenever this was mooted.
Whether this is psy-ops in preparation for tonight's tete-a-tete I don't know, but I would have thought after all these months the original sticking points are still the same sticking points, so firmly entrenched.
Maybe tomorrow morning will see an announcement.

[GerryT]

So a democratic society negotiate until everyone agrees. The EU just exclude them and dismissed their views. Like I've said, really democratic.

Egh no, not everyone agreed ?  Hungary and Poland didn't.
Some EU decisions are made by majority (7 yr budget) others are on majority (ratifying new trade deals).

The EU is going ahead with a recovery fund, if that's 1, 2 10 or 25 countries. Each country can decide to get involved or not. Their democratic sovereign decision. We can't make them do it.
Like wise each EU country had a decision if they wanted to get involved in the vaccine purchase scheme, the UK could have but decided not to.

Unlike in the UK, NI and Scotland voted to remain, England and Wales to leave. NI and Scotland ignored.
Scotland ask for a second referendum and England say's no-you can't have a democratic vote, because we, another country say's you can't.

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy." These wise words were spoken by David Davis

[Nick]

But both countries have decided to not vote for the recovery fund, their decision alone.

So a democratic society negotiate until everyone agrees. The EU just exclude them and dismissed their views. Like I've said, really democratic.

[GerryT]

This has nothing to do with what Hungary and Poland are doing. This is about you shouting how democratic the EU is and then saying the EU will exclude them if they don't vote how the EU want them to. You really have blinkers on.

Did you not read what I posted, your hanging on one word and I've explained what I meant. They are NOT being EXCLUDED in the way your making out. If either country wants to participate they can, it's their decision. But both countries have decided to not vote for the recovery fund, their decision alone.

[Nick]

But you know full well that Hungary and Poland

This has nothing to do with what Hungary and Poland are doing. This is about you shouting how democratic the EU is and then saying the EU will exclude them if they don't vote how the EU want them to. You really have blinkers on.

[GerryT]

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Opt out / exclude, why let the meaning of a word get in the way of a good story. 😂

Both Hungary and Poland are the two countries that would greatly benefit from the recovery fund, buth both countries DECIDED THEMSELVES TO NOT RATIFY THE FUND, it is their choice to not participate. If they want to all they have to say is yes, we will ratify the fund.

But you know full well that Hungary and Poland were using the fact that the recovery fund had been recently attached to the 7yr EU budget and they were trying to put pressure on the EU so they wouldn't have to sign up to the rule of law provisions. By seperating the ratification of the Budget from the Fund the EU resolved that matter. It is totally within the power of Hungary and Poland to either stay out or participate in the recovery fund.
So exclude is a poor choice of word that you gleefully jumped on, but it would be Hungary or Poland excluding themselves it that suits you better

[GerryT]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-merkel-germany-breaks-more-eu-rules-worst-bottom-class-a8198271.html

Do you have a point ?  It's be said hundreds of times the EU bends and adjusts all the time if your a member. Every country has an issue at some point or another and the EU deals with this in it's own way. It's not what some in the UK think, as if it's a bureaucratic bully beating down it's members. Look at the actions of Hungary and Poland. If your suggesting it's just the Germans that get away with this your very wrong, the two biggest receivers in the EU break many rules. The EU doesn't look to immediately punish them and this is one of the great strengths of the EU. Some members take longer than others to adopt a new law or change, this is in cases acceptable. Current country leaders come and go and the EU project being led by adults will grow stronger and survive. The UK should try it for a change.

[GerryT]

EU's new protectionist Data Governance Act

Are you trying to suggest that the UK breaking the WA is in any way like what you linked ??
In one case you have a country UK tring 11 months after it agreed with another country EU, just two parties that the UK would not put up a border in IRL. Then it looks to renage and back out of that deal.
On the other hand you have the EU trying to protect the personal Data of EU citizens and their measure is in conflict with some 1990 Data rule. Lets see how this pans out as the approach to data in 2020 is very very different to 1990 and changes may be required. WHo knows how this will play out, lets see what objects are raised and how the EU deals with them. It's not like the EU acts like a bullying empire, a compromise is likely to be found.

But I'm hearing whispers that the UK is going to drop the offending clauses the Lords had removed, luckily Johnson seems to have done another one of his famous 180's. The man is nearly in a permanent spin at this rate.