Gunboats you say? I do indeed

[Thomas]

All waffle.

A border poll can be held at any time

There's widespread misunderstanding of the legal provision around holding a border poll which seems to rear its head not only on social media, but sometimes within the print media and even among the ranks of senior politicians.

The misunderstanding holds that, following the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, a border poll cannot be held unless there is the likelihood of a majority in favour of a united Ireland. This misconception is so widespread that experienced political commentators such as Brian Feeney repeat it; and even the British Government have been known to hide behind it. Another common misunderstanding is that the poll, once triggered the first time, must be held every seven years.

In fact, neither of these two requirements exist. The Secretary of State could lawfully direct the holding of a border poll tomorrow morning if he so wished; and he could lawfully refuse to hold another one if he had already called one at any time in the past.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/02/26/a-border-poll-can-be-held-at-any-time/

There is no support for a border poll other than brexiterrs,

Which brexiters would that be then?

Northern ireland majority voted remain , and the majority who did vote leave were unionists. Are you telling me northern irish unionists are in favour of a border poll?

The majority of english/uk brexiters i would imagine are not in favour of a border poll in northern ireland. From polls i have seen and posted over recent years , they would like the uk to stay together , but wont let any constituent part of the current uk( scotland , northern ireland) stop england leaving. So what or who are you talking about?

not in the nationalist community

What the nationalist community dont want irish nationalism? Next you will be telling me the snp dont want scottish indy , or the pope is a catholic.

The nationalist community and their parties do want a border poll of course , but this comes with caveats where they want to be as sure as can be they will win. As i pointed out , we are reaching , if not near , that stage both politically and demographically.

You see livong in Ireland and having work colleagues that i meet regularily, some catholic and some proddy i can educate you.

im irish! im irish!. Why do you feel the need to keep shouting you are irish? Most irish i know , are like us scottish ,so confident in our nationality that we only need to whisper about it.

The young in NI see themselves as Northern Irish more than Irish or British.

Some do some dont. I have family in coleraine who see themselves british. Stop trying to simplify a complex situation to suit your pathetic argument of using northern ireland to stop your country england leaving the eu , or at the least tying it to eu rules. Nationalism has won , you cardboard plastic champagne socialist and your internaitonalist solidarity is being laughed at.

From conversations ive had, on the ground, their reasons for reunification would be based more on economis that nationalist nonsence

You have been hiding behind the "economic argument" now for four years or more , yet that very same economic argument was torn to shread by brexiters when they voted to leave the eu.

Now you put the economic argument to northern ireland , in the hope it stays with the uk . That nationalist nonsense won the brexit vote in 2016. yet you still try and dimsiss it  , typical labour.

Do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

But you wouldnt have a clue as all you know about IRL comes out of a history book.

Im not pretending to be irish am i?

I certainly seem to know more about ireland than you , both historically , politically and current affairs.

If economic arguments triumphed over nationalsim , ireland would never have made the move to independence in the early twentieth century would it? England would never have voted brexit , the tories would never have stood on a nationalsit platform last decemebr and wouldnt have won a landslide , while the "internationalist socialists" in labour floundered to their worst defeat .

10 years and counting out of power , nationalism on the rise everywhere , and still labour and their supporters bleat about economics and the poor and internationalism!

But whats happening today, on the ground, you havent a clue

yet i seem to know more than you?

You tell me i havent a clue , yet i consistently rip apart your crap pretendy posts.

You live in a new labour fantasy land .

I think you are still in shock about brexit , and wont ever really get over it will you? You can't begin to contemplate that people vote for many reasons outwith the very economics you constantly carp about. When they do , you go into denial and complete shock , as you dont understand people.

I take great satisfaction taht tony blair and new labour are one of the biggest enablers of brexit. While tony blair was flooding the uk with mass immigration for economic arguments , loading the country up with pfi debt for economic arguments , licking the arse of big business and all the rest  , the people noticed all this and put the boot in once the scales fell from their eyes.

The price on tony blairs three election victories will haunt labour for years to come .

[Baff]

You showed 26% of your consumption is from the EU. I didnt imply UK food was a lower standard but under a no deal the UK wouldnt export to the EU with the high tariffs, just like you suggested the UK wouldnt buy from IRL. I said the EU would be down the value that the UK sells into the EU and this could be picked up by IRL.
Looking like its all academic if this deal is signed off. With tariff free access to the UK then IRL will just stay selling into the UK, happy days.

Oh no.
Now we are going to find out for real.
Because not only do we have zero tariffs with the EU, but we also have zero tariffs with all the EU's competitors.

Your goods will now have to be cheaper, if you wish to sell them here.


No one is going to be buying Irish out of a spirit of solidarity after all the spew you have come out with, now are they?
Your goods will be cheaper or better or both, or you will lose market share.
And you will lose market share. Because they are neither.

Nothing you sell that I can't buy from an allied nation for cheaper.

[GerryT]

You're still down 26%. As for suggesting our beef is of a lesser grade, it's what the EU has been buying.


80% . The UK produces 55% of its own food. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/food-statistics-pocketbook/food-statistics-in-your-pocket-global-and-uk-supply


It's all immaterial anyway Gerry as they EU is doing exactly what we've been telling you for years that they will do, deal at the 11th hour. Another fact you categorically said wouldn't happen.

You showed 26% of your consumption is from the EU. I didnt imply UK food was a lower standard but under a no deal the UK wouldnt export to the EU with the high tariffs, just like you suggested the UK wouldnt buy from IRL. I said the EU would be down the value that the UK sells into the EU and this could be picked up by IRL.
Looking like its all academic if this deal is signed off. With tariff free access to the UK then IRL will just stay selling into the UK, happy days.

[GerryT]

I have read it. You should read it , as well as brushing up on knowledge about ireland rather than listning to the virtue signallers in the british labour party.

Polling companies such as lucid talk and others have conducted 6 polls over the last two years that i know of , and half of them have shown a majority for irish reunification. If you dont know who lucid talk are google them.

Heres the last one from october.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/27/news/backing-for-irish-unity-outstrips-support-for-union-but-many-undecided-poll-2110708/

On top of that , head unionists like peter robinson have been telling people to get prepared for a border poll much to your dismay im sure , so again what are you talking about?

https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/10/24/robinson-calls-on-unionists-to-prepare-for-a-potential-border-poll/

On top of all that , unionists lost control of stormont for the first time in a century back in 2017 ,

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/unionism-loses-its-stormont-majority-1146928


demographically unionism  though the old protestant majority fell below the 50 % mark back in 2011 , which was recorded in the last census .

So demographically politically and though polling we see unionism on the retreat and in a minority , and both sides calling on and getting prepared for a potential border poll any minute, much to your dismay in trying to use northern ireland to hamstring england.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-light-shed-on-prospect-of-catholic-majority-in-north-1.3891032

None of this is of any surprise to those of us who know a wee bit about ireland , on this forum in particular deppity dawg and myself. You trying to pass yourself off as irish though yet again are being caught out with your constant lies and make believe nonsense .

As to the mechanics of calling a border poll know we have established the ground work that exists already for support for reunification , the northern ireland act 1998 contains a slightly modified version of the border poll legislation from 1972 , you know , the origianl polling legislation created for the border poll you didnt know had happened in 1973.

In that legisaltion , it compells the nisos to call a border poll when certain circumstances arise.

He is only mandated to do so when , in his own personal view , a majority exists for a united ireland , whic of course is very vague as many have argued that majority currently exists. Brexit merely helped push a reunification majority over the threshold , but it had been growing as we have seen for decades , and unionism as i have pointed out has been , and wil continue to be , on the retreat in all avenues.

So where is this serious lack of my understanding gerry? The only person making himself look a tit playing at being irish is yourself. Tons of basic stuff that is common knowledge to every irish man i have watched you flounder over on this forum for a long while .

You really dont have a feckin clue what you are on about , and as every one can see , you are merely on here to argue english politics and stop brexit. Northern ireland means nothing to you.
Just as i have pointed out brexit isnt finished , many a time , despite your bleating to the contrary.

A transition period isnt brexit. Brexit will have moved past its next stage come hogmanay. Its an ongoing process that will carry on for years.

If johnson betrays the english over the eu , as we have said , forcing england into a sort of BRINO deal , then farage and co will annihilate him.

Sadly for you , labour wont be able to take adavantage , as we will keep our boots on labour necks in scotland , and the northern english and probably many southerners outside london will put their boots on conservative necks and vote for farage and the brexit party.

So for status quoers like yourself , im afraid the old world that once existed is long gone.

Nationalism is on the rise everywhere , and i can see the day coming where the tired old parties like labour and tory are in a similar position to the liberals.

All waffle.
There is no support for a border poll other than brexiterrs, not in the nationalist community. You see livong in Ireland and having work colleagues that i meet regularily, some catholic and some proddy i can educate you. The young in NI see themselves as Northern Irish more than Irish or British. From conversations ive had, on the ground, their reasons for reunification would be based more on economis that nationalist nonsence. But you wouldnt have a clue as all you know about IRL comes out of a history book. Ill grant you your good on dates and what happened 600 yrs ago. But whats happening today, on the ground, you havent a clue.

[Forum admin]

Moderation Notice

Topic locked. Thomas (and others), please stop the allegations and do not start them again in another topic.

We always check I/P addresses and anyone suspected of trying to fool us is banned and asked to explain it.

EDIT

Thread reopened after pruning.

[Nick]

Well the rest of the EU is now down 156k tonnes, maybe we can sell there ?

You're still down 26%. As for suggesting our beef is of a lesser grade, it's what the EU has been buying.

the rest the UK will prob still buy, you import 80% of your food cosumption, do you think that can be produced locally. If so why hasn't that happened in the past

80% . The UK produces 55% of its own food. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/food-statistics-pocketbook/food-statistics-in-your-pocket-global-and-uk-supply


It's all immaterial anyway Gerry as they EU is doing exactly what we've been telling you for years that they will do, deal at the 11th hour. Another fact you categorically said wouldn't happen.

[Thomas]

Waffle
Funny, in NI there are in simple terms Catholic (Nationalists) and Protestants(Unionists).

What ?

You havent heard of protestant background alliance voters who arent unionists , or the very tiny catholic minority who support the union and status quo? No mate , it might be that simple to you living in england , or coming from england , but the reality on the ground is far far more complicated.

But your waffling again, most people here, yes Ireland would say protestant, your splitting hairs again protestant=Presbyterian=Unionist in most Irish people books.

What you havent heard of the anglican church of ireland gerry?

You do realise presbyterians arent anglicans dont you? Or how the old penal laws were used against the presbyterian dissenters ?

I'm not your "mate", such an English thing to say, you sure your not from England.

Errr , we are speaking english arent we? People from glasgow do actually use english and english phrases and words , or do you think we all run around the hills in kilts talking gaidhlig?

Its a figure of speech gerry , as im sure your aware , coming from england  yourself. No you arent my mate , nor anyones on here.

Shows what you know, and I'm still not your "Mate" Englishman.

A bit of reverse psychology is it gerry to divert from the fool you are making of yourself?
Comment removed by Forum Admin

But thanks for the history lesson.

no problem , you need it , as your lack of knowledge of irish history politcs and currnet affairs shines through.

[DeppityDawg]

Baff you need to put away the medals and your Webley, the risk of peace is GB running rough shot over NI, risking the peace on the island of Ireland, again.

You really don't seem to get the whole WA and NI protocol. In very simple terms a product going from UK to ROI through NI is subject to tariffs. But NI goods going to ROI are not. The only way to stop people in the UK moving goods into the EU tariff free is to check at NI ports all goods entering NI. Any goods staying in NI are not subject to tariffs, all others are. The only way this internal UK border works is to check all goods entering NI from the UK

If Johnson says otherwise he's lying...again. He's a born liar so just ignore him.

Feck sake, Gerry. Do you not ever get tired of listening to yourself? You've spent the last 4 years it seems on this forum, sounding like a broken record, yet you claim you "aren't interested" in the UK and you "don't care" what happens? Seriously Gerry, no one believes you anymore, because you clearly do, or you wouldn't be on here more than most of the UK posters.

For someone who doesn't care, you have a really strange way of showing it 

[Thomas]

NO, as far as Irl is concerned there hasn't been a Ref on NI. What happened in '73 was just UK politics, like a child with a tantrum. Best ignored.

in your opinion , but as everyone else can see you are merely wriggling.

anyway on we go.

[Thomas]

Like I said your displaying a serious lack of understanding. Until there is a majority that want to reunify then their won't be a border poll. That's whats in the GFA, you should read it.

I have read it. You should read it , as well as brushing up on knowledge about ireland rather than listning to the virtue signallers in the british labour party.

Polling companies such as lucid talk and others have conducted 6 polls over the last two years that i know of , and half of them have shown a majority for irish reunification. If you dont know who lucid talk are google them.

Heres the last one from october.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/27/news/backing-for-irish-unity-outstrips-support-for-union-but-many-undecided-poll-2110708/

On top of that , head unionists like peter robinson have been telling people to get prepared for a border poll much to your dismay im sure , so again what are you talking about?

Robinson calls on Unionists to prepare for a potential border poll

https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/10/24/robinson-calls-on-unionists-to-prepare-for-a-potential-border-poll/

On top of all that , unionists lost control of stormont for the first time in a century back in 2017 ,

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/unionism-loses-its-stormont-majority-1146928


demographically unionism  though the old protestant majority fell below the 50 % mark back in 2011 , which was recorded in the last census .

So demographically politically and though polling we see unionism on the retreat and in a minority , and both sides calling on and getting prepared for a potential border poll any minute, much to your dismay in trying to use northern ireland to hamstring england.

Majority rule'

In this context, the 2011 census was a "demographic watershed". For the first time, the proportion of the population declaring themselves as Protestant or brought up Protestant fell below 50 per cent: "In a society characterised by debates over 'majority rule', where consent by a majority underpins the legitimacy of the state, the absence of a religious majority is an important symbolic marker," the report states.

There are other changes: only two of the North's six counties, Antrim and Down, now have "significant Protestant majorities", and only one – Lisburn – of its five official cities.

"Within a decade, Belfast will almost certainly have a Catholic majority," it states; in effect, a majority Protestant Northern Ireland "is now restricted to the suburban area surrounding Belfast."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-light-shed-on-prospect-of-catholic-majority-in-north-1.3891032

None of this is of any surprise to those of us who know a wee bit about ireland , on this forum in particular deppity dawg and myself. You trying to pass yourself off as irish though yet again are being caught out with your constant lies and make believe nonsense .

As to the mechanics of calling a border poll know we have established the ground work that exists already for support for reunification , the northern ireland act 1998 contains a slightly modified version of the border poll legislation from 1972 , you know , the origianl polling legislation created for the border poll you didnt know had happened in 1973.

In that legisaltion , it compells the nisos to call a border poll when certain circumstances arise.

He is only mandated to do so when , in his own personal view , a majority exists for a united ireland , whic of course is very vague as many have argued that majority currently exists. Brexit merely helped push a reunification majority over the threshold , but it had been growing as we have seen for decades , and unionism as i have pointed out has been , and wil continue to be , on the retreat in all avenues.

So where is this serious lack of my understanding gerry? The only person making himself look a tit playing at being irish is yourself. Tons of basic stuff that is common knowledge to every irish man i have watched you flounder over on this forum for a long while .

You really dont have a feckin clue what you are on about , and as every one can see , you are merely on here to argue english politics and stop brexit. Northern ireland means nothing to you.

Hang on, I'v pointed out to you many times that brexit is finished, it finished last January. The UK left, it's over, finished.

Just as i have pointed out brexit isnt finished , many a time , despite your bleating to the contrary.

A transition period isnt brexit. Brexit will have moved past its next stage come hogmanay. Its an ongoing process that will carry on for years.

If johnson betrays the english over the eu , as we have said , forcing england into a sort of BRINO deal , then farage and co will annihilate him.

Sadly for you , labour wont be able to take adavantage , as we will keep our boots on labour necks in scotland , and the northern english and probably many southerners outside london will put their boots on conservative necks and vote for farage and the brexit party.

So for status quoers like yourself , im afraid the old world that once existed is long gone.

Nationalism is on the rise everywhere , and i can see the day coming where the tired old parties like labour and tory are in a similar position to the liberals.

[GerryT]

It's part in the UK single market, part in the EU single market.

Explicitly agri sectors and pharma, it's in the EU single market.

I'll risk peace with you any day of the week.
Anyone who threatens us with war in order to get his own political dominion over us deserves one.
All the way to world war if you wan't to play those kinds of games.
Happy to nuke your fascist and pathetic arses out of human history for good.

You'd be gone before I finish my pint.
And that would be funny.

Baff you need to put away the medals and your Webley, the risk of peace is GB running rough shot over NI, risking the peace on the island of Ireland, again.

You really don't seem to get the whole WA and NI protocol. In very simple terms a product going from UK to ROI through NI is subject to tariffs. But NI goods going to ROI are not. The only way to stop people in the UK moving goods into the EU tariff free is to check at NI ports all goods entering NI. Any goods staying in NI are not subject to tariffs, all others are. The only way this internal UK border works is to check all goods entering NI from the UK

If Johnson says otherwise he's lying...again. He's a born liar so just ignore him.

[GerryT]

Well guess what, we can keep our 156,000 tons and you can keep your 211,000 tons. We clearly use more than our 156K so can up our domestic production. What you going to do with 211K tons of beef? Oh yes, I forgot you can easily find a new market overnight.

Well the rest of the EU is now down 156k tonnes, maybe we can sell there ? the rest the UK will prob still buy, you import 80% of your food cosumption, do you think that can be produced locally. If so why hasn't that happened in the past

And using the example I like to use, Oranges. We will buy them from Brasil at 8p a kilo, stick a 1000% tariff on and they're still cheaper than Spanish ones. Repeat times thousands of goods.

Whats the UK tariff on Beef ?
You can buy chlorinated beef and GM foods too, but will the UK ?
I could try explain how ALL countries around the world protect their home food producing industry but I've tried and failed. Suffice to say ALL countries do it. I guess the UK will bu seen as you have such a very very low level of food production there's little to protect.
Your taking of the vast benefit of leaving the EU and striking great new trade deals, well I hate to tell you but I haven't seen 1 deal that is better than what the EU has. But you have an orange, great win there.

[GerryT]

Exactly the same as with Brexit. You don't give it legitimacy because the result doesn't conform to what you want.

It doesn't get legitimacy because there was massive corruption, that put Brexit in the mino leagues in comparison.
Ask yourself why nobody voted for reuification, nobody. Meanwhile people are taking up arms and killing UK police, soldiers etc. Come on  think about it, stray away from the great empire thinking and use that grey matter. Ask yourself why the UK sent over 20,000 troops to NI in the '70's. And you think 100% of the electorate wanted to stay in the UK ??

[GerryT]

no it doesnt , we went over this in great detail with you and your other sock puppet connor or whatever his name was on the old forum.

The english N.I .s.o.s calls a border poll in his judgement as per the GFA.

Like I said your displaying a serious lack of understanding. Until there is a majority that want to reunify then their won't be a border poll. That's whats in the GFA, you should read it.

Againthough you divert , you said to me that you didnt want a border poll just now as it wasnt the right time and all that old malarkey , not that the N.i.s.o.s  wouldnt call it because there wasnt any support.

I gave you loads of lucidtalk polls showing a majority support rememebr due to brexit , and you ran off making some other excuse.

You are full of cac gerry , and whats more despicable to me is your labour party view that northern ireland is merely a bandwagon to jump aboard not because you care for the people living there , but simply because its a tool to be used where your real interests lie , stopping england democratic vote to brexit.

Hang on, I'v pointed out to you many times that brexit is finished, it finished last January. The UK left, it's over, finished. No more Brexit. It's all about a future trade deal and damage limitation.
Also I have been consistent, leave NI out of Brexit, the UK isn't happy with the WA/NI-protocol, well tough mickey, deep breath, move on. It's brexiteers that have used NI as a  tool, or tried to. Thankfully our Govt ran rings around the dummies (Johnson in particular). He came over here full of sh1t and when he left the WA was soon signed, Varadkar made an edjit out of him.

[GerryT]

Straw man. I made no comment on its legitimacy , and indeed i have argued all my life northern ireland isnt legitimate , but there you go. However , legitimate or not , 1973 and the referndum result , wether a kangaroo ref or not , it still makes you look a tit and shows your lack of knowledge again on ireland.

NO, as far as Irl is concerned there hasn't been a Ref on NI. What happened in '73 was just UK politics, like a child with a tantrum. Best ignored.

Boo hoo , gerry the lefty labour englishman championing the poor and oppressed.

Dont you ever get fed up with all your virtue signalling?

Is that right mate, I never get tired of pointing our the reality.

who cares?

I dont accept it either , but im using it to show where you are wrong and clueless aout the 6 counties , except what you can google or the local labour party club in catford can tell you from the memoirs of the likes of geroge galloway.

More waffle

i have i have shown where you were wrong in your reply to nick , and all you can do is try and wriggle.

No wriggle, as far as most Irish are concerned, ;73 was just a party political exercise.No meaning, ignored by the Nationalist community.

i dont rememebr labour supporters moaning about cheating in 1979 , or 2014 , but when they dont like the result , its funny how cheating is always brought up.

some you win some you lose gerry , like brexit. Twos up .

Agh no, there's cheating and cheating. Let me explain, in '73 refuse catholic's the vote, change the regions so catholic's can't get into power, have no say. That's one form, another would be lying under a ruck and using your hand to push the ball back.