Indy Dead??

[Thomas]

So I guess from what they say, they aren't far from the truth. I don't know if you will get another referendum but at a guess, the Liberal elite will do their utmost to make sure you do as spite is more important than moving on.

not sure i agree sheep. The liberal elite don not want scot indy anymore than brexit. They are status quoers , as i call small c tories like pat , through to beelbeeb and javert and the like and those who support both the liberal elite and the status quo.

English brexiter , remainer , liberal, tory , green , kipper , and both red tories like robin goodfellow and momentum types like sensitive steve downed tools in 2014 , stood shoulder to shoulder , and threw everything they could arm in arm against scot indy , and it wont be any different next time.

Scotland like northern ireland is merely a tool to use for frightening , but they wont let things go as far as allowing jocks or the paddies a vote on the matter.

Havent you read my posts with the likes of gerry . who merely wanted to use northern ireland to stop england leaving the eu , but wont go as far as to support in any way a border poll in the near future for all his puerile reasons?

Same with us , they will try and reign us in before scot indy gets as far as a vote.

[Sheepy]

brexiters and brit nats dont like the eu and dont want scotland to join? Who knew sheep?

I think if england concentrates on making brexit a success for itself , and stops worrying about the rest of us , we will all get along much better.

I supported demcoracy over the last four years when english remainers were trying to shaft you , n ow it seems certain brexiters and brit nats have now become the new anti demcorats in not wanting their scottish colony to leave , and supporting the anti democratic stance of your conservative govnerment , which hasnt won an election in scotland for 65 years.

lets call a spade a sapde here........all brexiters on this very forum were told that the repercussions of voting brexit may very well break the uk , and they went ahead anyway.

so you reap what you sow , and no one can complain.

So I guess from what they say, they aren't far from the truth. I don't know if you will get another referendum but at a guess, the Liberal elite will do their utmost to make sure you do as spite is more important than moving on.

[Thomas]

I don't know if they do think that, most I speak with tend to think your battle for independence from Westminster has taken a turn for the worst by outside influence.

brexiters and brit nats dont like the eu and dont want scotland to join? Who knew sheep?

I think if england concentrates on making brexit a success for itself , and stops worrying about the rest of us , we will all get along much better.

I supported demcoracy over the last four years when english remainers were trying to shaft you , n ow it seems certain brexiters and brit nats have now become the new anti demcorats in not wanting their scottish colony to leave , and supporting the anti democratic stance of your conservative govnerment , which hasnt won an election in scotland for 65 years.

lets call a spade a spade here........all brexiters on this very forum were told that the repercussions of voting brexit may very well break the uk , and they went ahead anyway.

so you reap what you sow , and no one can complain.

[Sheepy]

the chickens have come home to roost , thats what certain brexiters and british nationalists dont like.

Anyone who thinks dragging scotland out the eu and disrespecting a 62 % remain vote and that we all go off into the brexiter sunset is needing their head examined.

I don't know if they do think that, most I speak with tend to think your battle for independence from Westminster has taken a turn for the worst by outside influence.

[Thomas]

And as you can see it was a question based on the criteria given in the OP. It wasn't a statement of fact, it was an OP that explores the possibilities of where we could be in 12 / 18 months.

Well as you can see nick we have done that. Indy isnt dead , its at its highest support in 40 years.

[Thomas]

She has.

come on barry we went over this time and again.

The idea scotland in the uk outside eu is better than scotland independent and inside the eu is not a view shared by majority of scots.You put the anti eu arguemtn to us , and were thrashed in 2016.

Anti eu parties could barely get above 2% of the vote over many elections in scotland  , and now all that is left for you is to do what remainers did to you over the last four year and go into denial.

im not some frothing remainer , but i would accpet indy in the eu over brexit in the uk any day of the week.

[Thomas]

I am not disagreeing just pointing out the fact, that the chickens have come home to roost, they cannot turn back the clock now and as you said yourself you knew what they were doing and let the SNP play along for that reason. So does it come as any sort of surprise, not from where I am sitting.

the chickens have come home to roost , thats what certain brexiters and british nationalists dont like.

Anyone who thinks dragging scotland out the eu and disrespecting a 62 % remain vote and that we all go off into the brexiter sunset is needing their head examined.

[Thomas]

  There's the Thomas I know and love. Welcome back! As you say talk is cheap - I am not a nationalist or at least I don't think I am.

i would say you are. There is this myth in england , or the wider uk that naitonalism is bad  , except british nationalism , which isnt nationalism , and its good.

If you believe in englnd or britian as a nation , and see yourself as a national of either , then you are a nationalist. We did an old thread on it years ago on the old forum , and most if honest admittted to being nationalists.

I am Conservative but that doesn't mean I appreciate all their policies and believe it

conservatism is fully tied up in unionism and nationalism of the british state.

or not I cannot take the blame for what our ancestors did or didn't do

not asking you to toots. Im not some virtue signaller casting up long forgotten wrongs , i simply dont agree with and never have in any way supported the continued existence of the uk .Three hundred years of history has shown what a disaster its been for us in scotland , and its nothing to do with the ordinary english people.

I try to take a pragmatic view where I can and the possibility of Scots who are not so adamant about independence may well be in 'wait and see' mode.

There is a fine line between pragmatism and delusion.

There are a tiny amount of scots in this camp you mention , who arent aligned with either the yes movement or the british nationalist movement . 62% voted remain , and want to stay in the eu , and like you over the last four years dont like having their votes disrespected.

No-one can be sure where Scotland stands at present.

or the wider uk and brexit. Yet you are determined to ignore all dissent and plough on and leave , yet attempt to tell us we cant leave your uk as its "uncertain"!

You never know Thomas, even you may be surprised!

likewise with you toots.

You seem to be certain of the future while throwing uncertainty at me. I would say brexit was a massive leap in the dark , which hasnt even begun to be sorted out , yet you seem to think its all done and dusted , nothing to see here move on.

Sorry toots , if you think english remainers , never mind northern irish or scottish nationalsits are going to come quietly then im afraid you are in for a rude awakening.

[Nick]

Read the thread title. Indy dead?

I mean in what warped universe is scottish indy dead?

There has to be a special type of delusion to start a thread with that title.

Brexiters , english tories and johnson have scottish indy at an all time high probably since the days of margaret thatcher in the eighties , and the idea we all walk off into the brexter sunset as one big happy family (ie scotland imprisoned in an english prison) is of course laughable.

And as you can see it was a question based on the criteria given in the OP. It wasn't a statement of fact, it was an OP that explores the possibilities of where we could be in 12 / 18 months.

[Barry]

Sturgeon has played a blinder, and johnson and his tory party( who havent won an elecxtion in scotland since 1955 lmfao) are driving yes into 60% mark. She is milking him for every yes vote , compared to how the clueless starmer is trying and failing to attack johnson in england

She has.

[Thomas]

This is true and means that after the courts in Scotland have over-ruled Boris. (Again). You can then go on to your Indyref2 and easily achieve your greatest objective, full independence for Scotland.
Huzzah!

hopefully barry.

We are better of as friendly neighbours than rats fighting in a sack.I said this back in 2014.

At least cameron , then ,  was a democrat and had guts , whatever else his faults , unlike johnson the coward.

Sturgeon has played a blinder , and johnson and his tory party( who havent won an elecxtion in scotland since 1955 lmfao) are driving yes into 60% mark. She is milking him for every yes vote , compared to how the clueless starmer is trying and failing to attack johnson in england

[Sheepy]

sheepy i liked your post , but as you know i , and most of the grassroots yes in scotland , want nothing whatsoever to do with englands remain.

I have said this over the last four years or so .

I am not disagreeing just pointing out the fact, that the chickens have come home to roost, they cannot turn back the clock now and as you said yourself you knew what they were doing and let the SNP play along for that reason. So does it come as any sort of surprise, not from where I am sitting.

[T00ts]

No toots , you have misinterpeted every thing i have said over recent months as somehow accepting brexit , and shutting up and going back into my box as a good little briton.

Sorry , but this is on another planet.

Let me re emphasis my point regading europe and the eu to you. I dont care about it one way or the other , but i have siad , and continue to say , what an anti democratic travesty it is england and wales dragging scotland and northern ireland out agains the clear majority will.

Im not sure in an indy scotland i would vote to rejoin the eu , nor do i support the monarchy and many other issues that are trivial by nature at the minute , when the pressing issue is to get out of the prison england has contructed for us.

If the price to get out the uk is rejoining the eu , then i will be the first in the queue to do so. I would also bend the knee to the monarch to do so despite being a longstandin republican.

Wihtout independence , none of thee other issues matter as england will as always decide our fate and call it some twisted version of demcoracy.

Im, still here toots. I havent changed my views on single millimetre.

.....but if you thought i am on your side , or any other british nationalist , then sorry , but you must be delusional.

I accept your apology , but what im trying to convey is the mindest behind british nationalists on this thread , and how its very revealing as ever how you think of scotland.
talk is cheap toots , you can campaign and vote to leave the eu over a forty year period , but not once in three hundred years could the englsihman hold a vote to dissolve the uk?

You sent soldiers in to ireland to stop them leaving , you did the same in northern ireland during the troubles , and your conservative government refuses to accept numerous mandates on scotland for another referendum?

Doesnt seem to many in your government to me who want scotland to leave .

hang on a minute , you and ours voted to upset the constitutional norm that was the uk in the eu, despite being told repeatedly it would upset and possibly dissolve the uk , and you ploughed ahead anyway , stuck two fingers up to scotland 62 % remain vote , and now talk about scotland not being allowed to leave the uk  because of the new world  you created is full of uncertainty and fear?

LMFAO , sorry toots ,this is laughable.

reap what you sow.

Scared in what way?

You asked scotland not once, but twice in two years if they wanted to leave the eu , and both times they said no. The first time it coincided with what british nationalists wanted , so the vote stood , the second time it was brushed uder the carpet as england had voted leave.

What future developments? You have just told scotland i nyour british priosn , no matter what scotland voted for or wants , in any future sceanrio we will get what england voted for , end of story.

unlike the more democratic eu , the british prison ruled by westmisnter doesnt do rule by consent.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-referendum-support-if-22975914

there are loads of pols to choose from , but the vast majroty of scots want another indy ref over brexit , so not sure what you are talking about again toots.

This has been consistent since 2016.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18873631.scots-want-indyref-within-five-years---even-uk-says-no/

  There's the Thomas I know and love. Welcome back! As you say talk is cheap - I am not a nationalist or at least I don't think I am. I am Conservative but that doesn't mean I appreciate all their policies and believe it or not I cannot take the blame for what our ancestors did or didn't do. I try to take a pragmatic view where I can and the possibility of Scots who are not so adamant about independence may well be in 'wait and see' mode. No-one can be sure where Scotland stands at present. You never know Thomas, even you may be surprised! 

[Barry]

Brexiters , english tories and johnson have scottish indy at an all time high probably since the days of margaret thatcher in the eighties , and the idea we all walk off into the brexter sunset as one big happy family (ie scotland imprisoned in an english prison) is of course laughable.

This is true and means that after the courts in Scotland have over-ruled Boris. (Again). You can then go on to your Indyref2 and easily achieve your greatest objective, full independence for Scotland.
Huzzah!

[Thomas]

The Liberal elite media with their usual entourage of assorted Remainers and anarchists are on their usual spite mission, which is feeding Scots Indy by making the deal look anti-SNP which the SNP will automictically take up the baton. It was bad form in the first place to use the SNP as a beating stick. But then they are so far down that path there is no turning back, if you expect Thomas a scots nationalist not to take up that baton, you are in some twilight world.

sheepy i liked your post , but as you know i , and most of the grassroots yes in scotland , want nothing whatsoever to do with englands remain.

I have said this over the last four years or so .