Johnson's Christmas Present

[BeElBeeBub]

Christ you lot like to bleat about "anti-democratic" and "traitors".

Our our opinions differ on what is best for our country

You like to cast me as not wanting the best for my country.  Quite the reverse, I want it to prosper.

I believed and still do the UK's best long term interests were served by continuing membership of the EU.

If I believed there was a chance that Leaves promises before the ref would have been possible I would have voted Leave.

Amusingly for all DD & Thomas' "I voted remain but people like you have turned me in to hard Brexiter" whining they forget I had the opposite journey

I started as a Eurosceptic before the ref.  When it was announced my gut instinct was to vote leave.  The arguments were initially persuasive.

It was the £350m claim that unraveled it all.  It sounded odd so I dug and found out how spun it was.  Then each time I dug into a leave claim I found it to be badly spun.

Several claims nearly flipped me back (the unelected EU commission one was persuasive at first glance, but when I dug into it I found the sovereignty claims to be BS).

So here we stand on the brink of end of the beginning.

The saga of brexit won't end tomorrow.  We have swapped membership for a neverending negotiation.

The ERG and others won't be satisfied. I give it 6 months before they are complaining how crap and traitorous the deal they have just endorsed is and how it should have had more scrutiny.bthe the whole thing starts over.

Meanwhile Remainers like me will buckle down and work on undoing the damage and eventually rejoining. It'll be a long and difficult path taking decades so if it's any consolation it's unlikely many leavers here are likely to see it, heck I might not.

[Thomas]

The highlight of hypocrisy over the last 4 years was Quack Quack on the one hand never missing an opportunity to call for a "second referendum" on EU membership, then in the next breath, saying that Scotland shouldn't have a second referendum on Independence, as they'd already had one. I don't remember any of the "remainers" challenging him once on that piece of fecked up logic. You couldn't have made it up.

Exactly deppity. The anti democratic hypocrisy is there for all to see.

Consistently you and i pointed out we originally didnt agree with brexit , argued and voted against it , but accepted democracy.

for saying that , we got shouted at with the insinuation we were brexiters for not jumping on the anti democratic big girls blouse bandwagon.

Too much democracy in my opinion is never a bad thing. You can hold as many referendums on any subject over and over as long as you like. Only anti democrats and status quo merchants are scared of this.

...but you need to implement the result each time.

Quackers  hypocritical twisting argument , along with the rest of them , is that brexit is hell on earth , armageddon , the end of the world , but if england is dragged out , despite the majority wanting it , then scotland must be too , despite the majority voting against it.

Theres a lot of things i havent seen the holier than thou  remain champions of all that is good and benign challenge

[DeppityDawg]

Both deppity dawg and myself voted remain as you know fne well ( but which doesnt stop you trying to cast us as brexiters at times when we wont jump on your childish anti democrtic bandwagon )and you arent doing the pro european argument any favours as i keep telling you with your tears and constant whinging about democracy.

The highlight of hypocrisy over the last 4 years was Quack Quack on the one hand never missing an opportunity to call for a "second referendum" on EU membership, then in the next breath, saying that Scotland shouldn't have a second referendum on Independence, as they'd already had one. I don't remember any of the "remainers" challenging him once on that piece of fecked up logic. You couldn't have made it up.

[DeppityDawg]

How ironic that you're the one resorting to playground level insults.

Its virtually impossible to deal with you in any other way. You are so invested in project EU that nothing anyone can say penetrates its defences that you've so comprehensively absorbed. You were one of those complaining about being labelled a "traitor", but its hard to see how you hold your country as anything other than an appendage of a supra-national entity. You see everything in terms of numbers and figures, lacking any kind of emotion or empathy, the kind of person most of us would avoid were this not a forum. Brexiters have told you repeatedly that the wealth issue is second those of sovereignty and identity, yet you are simply unable to grasp it. Even the fact that opportunities exist outside the EU you treat with contempt, as anything beyond the EU is barely worth the effort of discussing

In the end Beelbeeb, you and virtually ALL the remainers on here except me are middle class, centre left in outlook, representing in microcosm the split across this country. London and the wealthy South and South East, and their middle class professionals have done well out of EU membership, and its telling that support for the EU is concentrated in those areas. Look at what you what you post in defence of it, claiming it to be "fair and balanced" when it is nothing of the sort - a twitter thread over run with remain centrics like Femi Oluwole, and even contributed to by Barnier himself. There is not a single voice against EU propaganda in that thread at all

As I've said before, its people like you that made me question the wisdom of voting Remain, if this is the kind of one track, "Four legs good" mindset I was by default supporting. You, Javert, Quackpot, Gerry and the rest have NEVER had a balanced view of this subject, and to pretend otherwise just shows your collective arrogance in thinking you can all talk down to Brexiters as if they are beneath you

In the end, I'm glad this is now all over, and while my vote was to remain, it was a decision that has been tainted by the throughly undemocratic and spoilt child behaviour of many, many remainers, you included. Yes, I have reservations about Brexit and about this government in particular, but this is still my country, and it can and will rise to the opportunities which WILL result from leaving the EU. That is the difference between us. I have always accepted the result, and despite my reservations I will ALWAYS put my nationality before any supra national entity. Meanwhile, the rest of you have sneered your way through the last 4 years with thinly disguised contempt for those that voted differently to us. Despite all that you didn't get what you wanted Today is the end of it Beelbeeb. Grow the feck up and MOVE on. Its over now.

[Thomas]

Interesting and balanced thread from the perspective of an automotive trade advisor on what the UK/EU agreement does (and doesn't) achieve.

https://twitter.com/TradeAlemaro/status/1343949324833665024?s=19

It lays out where the UK/EU deal has genuinely achieved better than expected results.

Note thatninnall cases the FTA is worse than SM membership and the absolute increase in trade frictions.  Also note the RoO will constrain UK automotive supplier choice significantly. Previously sourcing from Asia etc was a simple business decision. Now manufacturers will have to factor in RoO into the decision which may constrain choices.

We are leaving the eu beelbeeb , and you need to learn to come to terms with it and deal with it .

Your "balanced " piece is nothig new. You post "balanced" pieces like this almost every day or week , and have done for a number of years.

We were reading "balanced " pieces like this before the referendum.

People read them , say thank you but no thank you , and went out and voted to leave the eu.

Further , people still want to leave the eu as recent elections have shown , and are getting ready to celebrate democracy being enacted  while you sulk.

Both deppity dawg and myself voted remain as you know fne well ( but which doesnt stop you trying to cast us as brexiters at times when we wont jump on your childish anti democrtic bandwagon )and you arent doing the pro european argument any favours as i keep telling you with your tears and constant whinging about democracy.

[BeElBeeBub]

Interesting and balanced thread from the perspective of an automotive trade advisor on what the UK/EU agreement does (and doesn't) achieve.

https://twitter.com/TradeAlemaro/status/1343949324833665024?s=19

It lays out where the UK/EU deal has genuinely achieved better than expected results.

Note thatninnall cases the FTA is worse than SM membership and the absolute increase in trade frictions.  Also note the RoO will constrain UK automotive supplier choice significantly. Previously sourcing from Asia etc was a simple business decision. Now manufacturers will have to factor in RoO into the decision which may constrain choices.

[BeElBeeBub]

It's telling of your whole nanny loving personally that you are unable to see anything other than the EU. You need someone to hold your hand, whereas others are looking outwards for new markets and new opportunities. And the best you can come up with is yet another daft analogy about a car breaking down. You belong in a nursery school like environment like the EU I guess, where the teachers can hold your hand, Beelbeeb.

How ironic that you're the one resorting to playground level insults.

I voted remain because because I was concerned investment would leave the UK and that the benefits of leaving were too far down the line to make up for that. Despite 4 years of purgatory (ably assisted by people like you) it looks like I was wrong.

I voted similarly, except I thought the benefits were not only far too far away to be important but also too uncertain and unevenly distributed.  Nothing has changed my opinion.

How are you able to say you were wrong when the impacts of leaving will only start to appear from 1st Jan 2021?  We have already seen impacts. Swindon Honda are closing this year.  They were slated for more investment in electric vehicle manufacturing. The boat carrying the new equipment to be installed at Swindon turned around mid voyage.  Whilst Sunderland hasn't closed, it's timeline of new models has shrunk.


You've no doubt seen the news piece on the "eel man".

As for the trade with "the outside", you are aware that the UK has not made any deals that it didn't have before? All the trade deals signed so far (with the exception of the EU one) are simple cut and paste versions of the existing ones.

As for new deals, the UK is in no better position to sign them. The UK was the sticking point on the EU/India deal because it didn't like the visa easements India demanded.  Do you think the UK is more or less likely to get India to drop them?

Going forwards the UK will continue, the FTA avoids some of the impacts but there will be more trade friction with everyone. Nobody will see easier trade.  A few (Tate&Lyle) will see marginally lower tariffs but the other trade frictions with everyone will not get better, at least not any better than they could have within the EU.

[Nick]

Good as you haven't got it. But for extended holidays you do get and that prob suits most, bar retired people.

A pathetic retort Gerry. We do have free movement, we just have to go through the non-EU passport control, which if you did any level of travel you would know in 75% of cases is faster than the EU checkpoint.

What ever that is

You don't know what political Union is? Let's assume we have no cheap comeback to Barry's point.

No you prefer to pay for lots of other things that's needed when outside the EU and cost more than membership. But that's ok

And of course you're going to give examples aren't you? Not that we are bothered.

What ever that means

You don't understand what a political layer might mean? Let's assume we have no cheap comeback to Barry's point.

Are you sure about this, how does the trade deal manage level playing field, governance-dispute resolution, labour laws, manufacturing standards, rules of origin etc..

Read the deal Gerry, it clearly states that any dispute will be handled by an independent body. A compliance agreement is built into the deal and our standards were of a high level long before we joined this racket. It's like COVID, I was washing my hands long before it it was fashionable.

Is that a reference to customs declarations ? whats the expected cost to industry for this then ?  or is it the vet forms for bringing a pet on holidays ?  or compliance with eu standards (CE for example) certification etc..

Look, don't dig too deep, get onto your politician and say sign this deal. It's far better than no deal as that would be a disaster for UK and EU companies. removing tariffs isn't perfect but its a step in the right direction

It means we don't care if we have to fill in a form where we didn't before.

[DeppityDawg]

Not exactly world ending but the sausage example (and the seed potato one) etc all show that "no trade barriers" is a lie.

There will be additional trade barriers. Full stop.

Some will be small and some insurmountable but the net effect is additional friction

Sure you can switch to exporting frozen sausages, if you can afford the machinery and your customers are happy with them.

You can relocate to the EU as well. Or you could trim your margins to offset the friction. 

The opportunities you alluded to are like your car breaking down is a great opportunity to walk more.

Beelzebub the EU has been in decline for a long time now. No matter how much you and other europhile wet wipes like Gerry pretend otherwise. It's embarrassing to watch you all fawning all over it like it's some kind of mother Theresa substitute.

I voted remain because because I was concerned investment would leave the UK and that the benefits of leaving were too far down the line to make up for that. Despite 4 years of purgatory (ably assisted by people like you) it looks like I was wrong.

Like it or no, we've left the EU now. There is a whole world out there to trade with, new and fast growing economies like India and Brazil, who will soon eclipse both us and the EU in size. It's time to put the result and the decision behind us because it's DONE. Get on with it and look to the future.

It's telling of your whole nanny loving personally that you are unable to see anything other than the EU. You need someone to hold your hand, whereas others are looking outwards for new markets and new opportunities. And the best you can come up with is yet another daft analogy about a car breaking down. You belong in a nursery school like environment like the EU I guess, where the teachers can hold your hand, Beelbeeb.

[Thomas]

Less than 48 hours now to go.

Remainers keep arguing the same economic arguments that have lost them a referendum and numerous elections over the last 4 half years.

[BeElBeeBub]

Erasmus has been dropped by us as it was deemed too expensive.

the point being Johnson promised that the UK would continue to participate in Erasmus. 

Again another promise broken.

We are likely to sign up to Copernicus but it's not a great issue.

but we aren't in Galileo the GPS competitor. Ironically one of the bug stumbling blocks is the EU rule (pushed for by the UK) that the higher level functions of Galileo only be available to members.

Databases are not all gone, only certain ones. What we lose they do too.

not all databases but we will be losing access to the important ones (Schengen information system). We've gone from having our own login to having to ask someone to log in for us.

As for citizens losing their freedom of travel!
For leisure travel there will be no change. You still need 6 months on your passport and can stay for 90 days visa free. Any longer you'll need to spend a whole £7.50 on a visa, most likely payable at the border.
We MAY need a visa but so what? I need a visa for quite a few places I travel too, and I've never had any problem.

again not the full story.

Yes we have a visa waiver, but by the end of next year you will need your electronic visa waiver which costs (as you say £7.50, and lasts a couple of years), but crucially it isn't guaranteed.  That can be refused and you will be asked to apply for a full Schengen visa (€80)

If you work in the EU beyond a limited number of situations you'll need to apply for a work visa for each country you wish to work in.  This impacts anyone who provides services to the EU (eg service engineers, designers, musicians etc).

To recap, the end of the world comprises a bit of paperwork and visa requirements. Not the apocalypse we were warned about. BTW, the EU will get the same treatment so an agreement will soon be made. What with London being the most visited City in Europe we are on the right side again.

. I hope it's worked out, but it isn't right now.

[BeElBeeBub]

As expected and widely predicted by Brexiters usch as Nigel Farage (Sir) we rolled over the EU trade deal too.
Shocker.

You must be very upset that the UK hasn't gone down the swanny by ignoring your advice for it.

"Rolled over the EU trade deal"? 

If you believe that then I have a bridge made of Nigerian gold you might be interested in.

The only bit that has "rolled over" is the 0/0 T&Q bit for goods that can prove their RoO.

If your business imported goods from outside the EU and resold them across the EU, you don't have a viable business on Friday.

Brexiters have *never* understood international trade beyond the simplistic level of tariffs and simple trade balances.

[GerryT]

That (exact same benefits) never was promised.
We didn't want freedom of movement.

Good as you haven't got it. But for extended holidays you do get and that prob suits most, bar retired people.

We didn't want political union.

What ever that is

We didn't want to pay to be part of the EU single market.

No you prefer to pay for lots of other things that's needed when outside the EU and cost more than membership. But that's ok

We didn't want the extra layer of politics.

What ever that means

We didn't want EU law to supersede our laws.

Are you sure about this, how does the trade deal manage level playing field, governance-dispute resolution, labour laws, manufacturing standards, rules of origin etc..

Pretty much job done then. Sorry if you have to fill in another form online.

Is that a reference to customs declarations ? whats the expected cost to industry for this then ?  or is it the vet forms for bringing a pet on holidays ?  or compliance with eu standards (CE for example) certification etc..

Look, don't dig too deep, get onto your politician and say sign this deal. It's far better than no deal as that would be a disaster for UK and EU companies. removing tariffs isn't perfect but its a step in the right direction

[Baff]

Can you indicate which trade deals we have recently signed that are *not* roll overs of deals we had via the EU?

Credit needs to be given to the civil servants negotiating these deals that they were able to roll over so many of them. I was sceptical they could manage that, although they have achieved it by copying the existing deals almost entirely.

It seems odd that a major leaver gripe was "the trade deals are for all EU members we should get bespoke UK ones" and then to celebrate signing "cut and paste" deals that are near identical.

As expected and widely predicted by Brexiters usch as Nigel Farage (Sir) we rolled over the EU trade deal too.
Shocker.

You must be very upset that the UK hasn't gone down the swanny by ignoring your advice for it.

[Nick]

UK citizens have lost their freedom of movement rights (for both business and non-business), Erasmus, Galileo, Policing databases all gone.

Erasmus has been dropped by us as it was deemed too expensive.
We are likely to sign up to Copernicus but it's not a great issue.
Databases are not all gone, only certain ones. What we lose they do too.

As for citizens losing their freedom of travel!
For leisure travel there will be no change. You still need 6 months on your passport and can stay for 90 days visa free. Any longer you'll need to spend a whole £7.50 on a visa, most likely payable at the border.
We MAY need a visa but so what? I need a visa for quite a few places I travel too, and I've never had any problem.

To recap, the end of the world comprises a bit of paperwork and visa requirements. Not the apocalypse we were warned about. BTW, the EU will get the same treatment so an agreement will soon be made. What with London being the most visited City in Europe we are on the right side again.