Walking and Talking in China

[Thomas]

Cromwell.......#silence on scotland being offered the same demcoracy the english demand from china for its regions#



Northern ireland .....# its in the past , all forgotten# .......#silence on streetwalker bringin up chinas past#



Chagos islands......# america is making us keep them#



Gibraltar........# what about what about what about mellila and ceuta#


You either agree with demcoracy , the rule of law , and the principles being talkesd about , or you dont.

[Thomas]

Well I answered this in a post earlier and the US involvement which I said you chose to ignore and that I'd always said the chagos islanders should be allowed home

Then in a later post you say thisWhich you know full well will not happen without US agreement.

What point are you trying to make cromwell?

The chagos islands are a british problem , not american . The british not the americans have been told to hand them back so what are you saying?

A big boy made us keep them, its not our fault?

I havent heard one coherent argument or point form you in this thread , all deflection and blaming eveyrone else and running away.

If , as you imply , the big boys in america are forcing the uk to not hand back the chagos islands while the uk is taking international blame , then all the uk has to do is agree to the internaitonal courts demands  , hand the islands back to mauritius , and then the blame falls directly at americas feet , and they will be in the dock for not complying.

Its not difficult cromwell.

Instead all through the thread all we get is wriggling from you are ever and deflections.

You can't lecture nations on their behaviour while your nation breaks international law and refuses to accept democracy.

[cromwell]

none of whom have the international clout , military or economic might to enforce anything without americas permission and backing.

Well I answered this in a post earlier and the US involvement which I said you chose to ignore and that I'd always said the chagos islanders should be allowed home

Then in a later post you say this

not to mention chagos

Which you know full well will not happen without US agreement.

[Thomas]

You know I agree with regard Scotland .

i know you do.

Im asking where is the vocal outpouring of rage against the lack of democracy by the british government in scotland and elsewhere?

Im pointing out the hypocricy by silence on these matters , while that same silent group of people suddenly find their voice to criticise china.?

What Farage says is there to be taken apart when he does  though shame the Scots didnt want to listen to him when he visited

What when some spotty nosed teenager , english labour if i remember in edinburgh , chased him into a pub?

Farage and your party have stood time and again over many years in scotland for election at every level , and have recieved a political kicking again and again.

Such is democracy.

Having been rejected so comprehensively over many years , averaging around less than 2% of the vote , is it any wonder why the majority dont want to listen to him when he pisses on the majority view on issues such as devolution?

Farage has about as much understanding of scotland as he does of china it seems to me.

[Streetwalker]

Why dont the english government do the same with scotland and put to bed that same international suspicion , not to mention handing back chagos?

Where is nigel farages criticism on these matters , since he is such an upholder of law, integrity, truth, Decmocracy and all that is right with the world?

If i remember aright , nigel farage didnt even want scotland to have its own devolved parliament despite three quarters of scotland voting for devolution never mind accepting a further scot indy ref.

Im sure the chinses will gleffully point this out to the british if they make a fuss , but im not sure farage will be worthy of their response.

You know I agree with regard Scotland .  What Farage says is there to be taken apart when he does  though shame the Scots didnt want to listen to him when he visited  .

[Thomas]

  Why dont the Chinese give the regions a vote on independence and put to bed international suspicion ?

Why dont the english government do the same with scotland and put to bed that same international suspicion , not to mention handing back chagos?

Where is nigel farages criticism on these matters , since he is such an upholder of law, integrity, truth, Democracy and all that is right with the world?

If i remember aright , nigel farage didnt even want scotland to have its own devolved parliament despite three quarters of scotland voting for devolution never mind accepting a further scot indy ref.

Im sure the chinese will gleefully point this out to the british if they make a fuss , but im not sure farage will be worthy of their response.

[Thomas]

The Hypocrisy would be merited, whether the situations were equivalent or not. I also do question the equivalence.
I have little faith in the reports of these so called Chinese Crackdowns and while I cannot speak with any authority on Tibet or Xinjiang, I can with Hong Kong. I have a lot of relatives by marriage in Hong Kong, and proud Hong Kongers they nearly all are.
How many do you think have contacted me and the Mrs over the last few months to ask about help to leave the territory and to take up Residency in the UK?
Answer........ None, neither are any to my knowledge looking to move elsewhere either. I do have some grown up ?Nephews ans Nieces who are Eurasion and with family in New Zealand and how move between HK, PRC and New Zealand (as movement restrictions allow) but none of the rest are looking to leave Chinese Territory.
Most of them had no sympathy with the rioters last year, after the extradition bill was passed and most are happy with the new National Security Law and virtually are pleased that the trouble and mindless vandalism and violence of the protestors has been stopped. I would guess you will find similar sentiment in the other two regions as well.

ok thanks for that reply sampan.

I have little knowledge of china , no more or less than most on here.

All im saying is first of all , i agree with your insinuation of hypocrisy from the british , and the  fact they have no moral standpoint , wether past nor present , on lecturing other nations on how to behave.

Secondly who is nigel farage , a non entity outside of england to be honest , not even elected politically to represent england , or the uk government , to act as the worlds policeman?

Thats a job for the international community collectively if china is breaking laws , agreements  , human rights etc , not a regime at westminster or minor mouthpieces on the fringe of the english chattering classes , none of whom have the international clout , military or economic might to enforce anything without americas permission and backing.

[Streetwalker]

The Hypocrisy would be merited, whether the situations were equivalent or not. I also do question the equivalence.
I have little faith in the reports of these so called Chinese Crackdowns and while I cannot speak with any authority on Tibet or Xinjiang, I can with Hong Kong. I have a lot of relatives by marriage in Hong Kong, and proud Hong Kongers they nearly all are.
How many do you think have contacted me and the Mrs over the last few months to ask about help to leave the territory and to take up Residency in the UK?
Answer........ None, neither are any to my knowledge looking to move elsewhere either. I do have some grown up ?Nephews ans Nieces who are Eurasion and with family in New Zealand and how move between HK, PRC and New Zealand (as movement restrictions allow) but none of the rest are looking to leave Chinese Territory.
Most of them had no sympathy with the rioters last year, after the extradition bill was passed and most are happy with the new National Security Law and virtually are pleased that the trouble and mindless vandalism and violence of the protestors has been stopped. I would guess you will find similar sentiment in the other two regions as well.

Well its good to know everyone is happy with their lot which beggars the question .  Why dont the Chinese give the regions a vote on independence and put to bed international suspicion ?

[Sampanviking]

Cromwell im simply calling the thread as i see it.

The british on the thread are criticising china , wether merited or not , by saying  "do as we say not as we do( or have done)".

Sampan is repsonding by calling you hypocrites , and in my opinion i agree.

End of story.

The Hypocrisy would be merited, whether the situations were equivalent or not. I also do question the equivalence.
I have little faith in the reports of these so called Chinese Crackdowns and while I cannot speak with any authority on Tibet or Xinjiang, I can with Hong Kong. I have a lot of relatives by marriage in Hong Kong, and proud Hong Kongers they nearly all are.
How many do you think have contacted me and the Mrs over the last few months to ask about help to leave the territory and to take up Residency in the UK?
Answer........ None, neither are any to my knowledge looking to move elsewhere either. I do have some grown up ?Nephews ans Nieces who are Eurasion and with family in New Zealand and how move between HK, PRC and New Zealand (as movement restrictions allow) but none of the rest are looking to leave Chinese Territory.
Most of them had no sympathy with the rioters last year, after the extradition bill was passed and most are happy with the new National Security Law and virtually are pleased that the trouble and mindless vandalism and violence of the protestors has been stopped. I would guess you will find similar sentiment in the other two regions as well.

[Sampanviking]

You just don't get it, do you? I am a member of The Church. The lack of "officialdom" really gets to the CCP and their supporters, doesn't it?
The Romans were threatened by this "sect" nearly 2000 years ago. Guess what, they've gone and Christianity remains. The same will happen to the CCP.
The Chinese church is CCP worship, they have invented a religion with the co-operation of the pope that has popery and pictures of the CCP leader on display.
We know what goes on. There's no religious freedom in China.

So what you are saying is that you/your Church want to go to China with the express aim of inciting dissent and overthrowing the Chinese State!
And yet somehow you are not made to feel welcome.
If you succeeded, how would your new religious order treat the worship of Confucius or the Buddha? 

[papasmurf]

Chinese Wedding,  (Subtitles available.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1EWOlHrfJo

[Thomas]

Indeed I brought them up as examples of where independence and freedoms do  not  exist for the people who desire it  .  N Ireland is different in that they can have freedom ,independence or a united Ireland if they desire it  .

...but we can't in scotland?

The Chagos Islands occupation is  wrong  and the sooner ended the better for all .

sure , and until you do , and accept international law , its hypocrticial shouting at the chinese wouldnt you agree?

Didnt putin say the same thing about crimea when britian started complaining?

All im saying is grandstanding by farage might sound good to the punters , but to everyone else it sounds nonsense , especially when you consider china would squash the uk like a bug both militarily and economically if it chose to go out of its way.

I dont think I could have been clearer over the years , my only opinion is that every nation should have independence be it from their oppressors  or historical collusions with others .

Brilliant i look forward to you telling your prime minister that over his refusal to agree to recognising a scottish indy ref.

Seems to be alot of silence on the matter , and other matters in england , but plenty of complaining about others nations doing the same as the uk does.

We can't do anything about the past but we can maybe  do something about the future

chagos islands and scot indy are current here and now events , which people in your country seem to wish to ignore and hope they disappear , and chinas past in tibet is no more distant then many  uk issues like northern ireland.

[Streetwalker]

Streetwalker brought up tibet , hong kong and religion.

Britian annexed northern ireland from ireland only 30 years before the chinese annexed tibet. Is one ancient history that musnt be talked about while the other is open to criticism? The atrocities in northern ireland are wihtin the lifetime of many if not all on this forum.

As for hong kong and human rights violations , mauritius labelled britians eviction of the entire popualtion of the chagos islands a human rights abuse , and the international court of justice at the hague ruled in theri favour and demanded britian hand the islands back to the mauritians.

Indeed I brought them up as examples of where independence and freedoms do  not  exist for the people who desire it  .  N Ireland is different in that they can have freedom ,independence or a united Ireland if they desire it  .

The Chagos Islands occupation is  wrong  and the sooner ended the better for all .

I dont think I could have been clearer over the years , my only opinion is that every nation should have independence be it from their oppressors  or historical collusions with others .
We cant do anything about the past but we can maybe  do something about the future

[Barry]

Are you being a bit coy here Barry?
Does your Church have an official name, a registered organisation and a recognised leader?
I ask as there are levels of designation within China with Religious organisations and I am interested to see where your church is within them.

As regards to what you have said, I see it this way. You are a non-Chinese, following a non Chinese religion, and a member of a sect which is neither established or official and yet you want the right to go to China and to totally disregard Chinese law and indeed custom?

If somebody came to the UK in a reverse situation, I think many here would express displeasure at the event. Maybe this is why the Chinese Government and People and not particularly happy or receptive to your (collectively) message.

You just don't get it, do you? I am a member of The Church. The lack of "officialdom" really gets to the CCP and their supporters, doesn't it?
The Romans were threatened by this "sect" nearly 2000 years ago. Guess what, they've gone and Christianity remains. The same will happen to the CCP.
The Chinese church is CCP worship, they have invented a religion with the co-operation of the pope that has popery and pictures of the CCP leader on display.
We know what goes on. There's no religious freedom in China.

[Sampanviking]

No.
I'm a bible believing free thinking evangelical Christian. I don't "belong" to anyone except Christ. Just the sort of people the CCP hate.

Are you being a bit coy here Barry?
Does your Church have an official name, a registered organisation and a recognised leader?
I ask as there are levels of designation within China with Religious organisations and I am interested to see where your church is within them.

As regards to what you have said, I see it this way. You are a non-Chinese, following a non Chinese religion, and a member of a sect which is neither established or official and yet you want the right to go to China and to totally disregard Chinese law and indeed custom?

If somebody came to the UK in a reverse situation, I think many here would express displeasure at the event. Maybe this is why the Chinese Government and People and not particularly happy or receptive to your (collectively) message.