We're OUT

[Tbird]

Are you in australia did you say?

When australia giving up her independence to come back under westmisnter control?

Well, do you know many Asian nations do considered Australia hasn't come out of "colonial era" yet.... One of our former Prime Minister is even working for No. 10 right now. It won't surprise me if he is an Englishman at heart. 

And to be honest, most England men and women I have been with aren't too happy about Scotts have so much say to pure England's (not UK's) affairs either.......

I don't mind people thinking of/supporting an independent, but I would always recommend people think of a solid plan for post-independent economy before that. And that's what I haven't heard much from SNP so far.

[Thomas]

That's the problem: As far as I know, much more people from Scotland move to England for work and better living, not the other way around.......

The english make up a bigger percentage of scotland s popualtion than the scottish do englands.so what are you talking about?

Traditionally and historically , france and north america were the main areas of scottish emigration .

There are more folk of scottish descent in north carolina than in scotland. Does that mean washington should get control of scotland or something?

But hang on, isn't that's what BREXIT for???

and 62 % of scotland rejected brexit.

shame you couldnt convince us of your arguemnts then isnt it?

Even last decemebr , what happened in scotland with all the brexit supporting parties in the general election ? Remain parties won 53/59 ?

What happened t bird?

[Thomas]

The population of Scotland has lagged proportionately, compared to England's growth, but short of moving it 20 degrees South I don't know what they can do to make it more attractive.

funnily enough again barry , with the advent of devolution in 1999 , scotland has managed to stop the decline in percentage terms of our popualtion . This is with small control over our own affairs.

Remember  , during my lifetime  , prior to devolution 1 million scots emigrated between 1979 , and 1999 , under (for the most part) the conservative london government of thatcher and major.

Having a tiny bit of control over economic lavers of power , never mind total control or control of immigration , has allowed us to slow if not stop decline. Imagine what we could do with independence.

Your country is too small for its vast population , my country , which is three fifths the size of yours , needs more immigration .Another reason why england and scotland are completely opposed to each others views on the EU i would suggest.

[Tbird]

The population of Scotland has lagged proportionately, compared to England's growth, but short of moving it 20 degrees South I don't know what they can do to make it more attractive.

That's the problem: As far as I know, much more people from Scotland move to England for work and better living, not the other way around.......

To be more attractive, last year's Miss Scotland surely does , lower tax and less regulation may help too.

But hang on, isn't that's what BREXIT for??? 

[Thomas]

The population of Scotland has lagged proportionately, compared to England's growth, but short of moving it 20 degrees South I don't know what they can do to make it more attractive.

Only three nations in western europe havent grown in population terms similar to the rest.

All three Norway ireland and scotland , were under the control until recently of larger imperial powers .

This graph here shows the massive imbalance after the union with england.

[Thomas]

Sorry mate, while I respect your dream of an independent Scotland. I would like to say some of your claim is wrong.

Scot didn't denied a say, they were part of that 47% vote stay and 53% vote leave on 2016 just like EVERY eligible person of the WHOLE UK did.

Nope you are cherry picking what im saying , and then twisting it.

I didnt say at any point scotland was denied a say in the brexit referendum in 2016. I voted in it , so i know this for a fact.

The chain of events were in 2014 , scotland was told to stay in the eu , it had to vote to stay in the uk. This was a key unionist arguemtn , and then two years later  , scotland is being taken out of the eu despite voting 62 % remain.

The uk isnt a country any more than the eu is a county. You are making a false argument. The uk is a union of nations , and like england can vote to leave the eu if it doesnt agree with that union , so should scotland have the choice to leave the uk.

2016 wasnt just a "uk " referendum as we know , and have discussed many a time , as gibraltar , on the southern tip of spain , an overseas territory , took part. They vote remain too.

So england and wales voted leave , go t leave , northern ireland and gibraltar voted remain got remain or as good as  , and scotland is the only part of the uk and the overseas territory that didnt get what it voted.

So you claim doesnt stack up.

If it was a uk vote , and the uk is a single homogenous country as you are trying to insinuate , ( it isnt but lets humour you) why is one part of the uk and the overseas territory being allowed to remain while other parts leave?

David davis said no country in the world will sign up to an agreement that says they can only leave when the other nation tells it to. Scotland has an agreement with england , the 1707 treaty of union , and scotland has the right , even more so that irleand or wales , who were english conquests rather than nations who voluntary joined like scotland , to leave the uk if the people choose.

83% of seats in Westminster is from England simply because England make-up of 83% of UK's population.

Rubbish. England has always had 82 % of the seats in westmisnter since scotland joined and ireland joined a century  later.

ireland wales and scotland made up half the population in these islands in 1801 , but didnt get half the seats. England had 40% land , 50 % population and 82 % seats. As ever , all that has changed is the goalposts to justify england having the majority of seats.

Once apron a time there were some county only got a population of less than a hundred but took up a seat in the parliament, and I am absolutely don't want a come back of that

False dichotomy , no one is suggesting this.

Scotland isnt a region of england  , it is a nation in its own right. In popualtion terms alone , as part of the uk we only received 6 meps , (and similar nations in terms of population like finland get 12 meps as part of the eu) , simply due to how westmisnter divided them up.

And for me what you are asking for, is not much different: Scotland, which compose only 8% of UK population, but have a power akin to veto to hijack all agenda of the whole UK.

England only makes up 40 % of the land of these islands , and no one in scotland , certainly not me or anyone i know , wants to hijack the agenda of anyone  , merely control our own.

England didnt want brussells to control its agenda , so it had a vote , and voted to leave.

Scotland doesnt want to leave the eu , england says no , you must leave , and when we say well we will have a vote  , england says no you can't.

We can clearly see which is the more democratic union , and it isnt the british one.

IMHO, I would say UK had more respect to the will of minorities regions than many European states do. Just have a look Spain or Belgium.

I am  , and so what makes you come out with this rubbish?

Belgians regional walloon parliament had more of a say on brexit than the scottish parliament did. I would say belgium treats it minorities better politically , and spain has a consitution which says spain is indivisibel , whereas the uk does not. Spains has long had devovled regional power , where the basque catalan parliaments have much more power than scotlands parliament , even to the extent of control of things like broadcasting . So what are you talking about?

I am not kidding, but if Scotland want more say, they can simply boost up their population: either be a more attractive place for us to stay and work, or our Scottish friends work harder to make more babies.

Our popualtion like irelands and wales has been falling since the adventy of union with your country , prior to that it stayed over many many centuries a steady 25 % of  the population of these islands .

Another way of boosting popualtion is control of immigration , guess what? Immigration is reserved to westminster. So how can we boost population when we dont have control of many of the levers to do so?

either be a more attractive place for us to stay and work,

sure totally agree ,and the best way to do tht is independence.

Are you in australia did you say?

When australia giving up her independence to come back under westmisnter control?

[Barry]

I am not kidding, but if Scotland want more say, they can simply boost up their population: either be a more attractive place for us to stay and work, or our Scottish friends work harder to make more babies. 

The population of Scotland has lagged proportionately, compared to England's growth, but short of moving it 20 degrees South I don't know what they can do to make it more attractive.

[T00ts]

In other words you don't know either. Does anyone know ?

I think the whole point at this moment in time is that there is an agreement. Is it final? Possibly not - as things evolve no doubt the agreement will evolve with it. eg If/when the EU implodes or other members leave that will no doubt alter the arrangements. Or perhaps if Scotland joins there will be a argument about the EU/English border all over again.

It seems to me that you Gerry have only one agenda, and that is to somehow prove that the UK will fail. Dream on.

[Tbird]

just let me clarify sampan , im not making a pro or anti eu argument .

The eu is settled for now in uk terms , we are out , and scotland knows if we stay part of the uk , we are out the eu .

In scottish terms , this is something we need to discuss and debate among ourselves, and as i said im not sure i would vote to join the eu.

What  im saying is the british are trying to deny us a say. They are telling us we are englands prisoner , and can't choose  , and westmisnter , which is 82% english mps and constituencies , will decide our fate for us.

So its time to choose. No one can  say the constitutional status quo of 2014 is the same , nor  the arguments and promises the british made to us.

Being part of a so called union where one country calls the shots over the other four unlike the euroepan union , where any country can vote to leave , isnt a union , its an english prison.

Sorry mate, while I respect your dream of an independent Scotland. I would like to say some of your claim is wrong.

Scot didn't denied a say, they were part of that 47% vote stay and 53% vote leave on 2016 just like EVERY eligible person of the WHOLE UK did. 83% of seats in Westminster is from England simply because England make-up of 83% of UK's population. Once apron a time there were some county only got a population of less than a hundred but took up a seat in the parliament, and I am absolutely don't want a come back of that. And for me what you are asking for, is not much different: Scotland, which compose only 8% of UK population, but have a power akin to veto to hijack all agenda of the whole UK. 

IMHO, I would say UK had more respect to the will of minorities regions than many European states do. Just have a look Spain or Belgium.

I am not kidding, but if Scotland want more say, they can simply boost up their population: either be a more attractive place for us to stay and work, or our Scottish friends work harder to make more babies. 

[Barry]

In other words you don't know either. Does anyone know ?

I don't know. I'm not sure I care too much either.

[Borchester]

In other words you don't know either. Does anyone know ?

No Gerry, but I am sure that you will make something up.

[GerryT]

No, I am saying that for a successful deal both sides need to be reasonably content with the results, which appears to be the case with the UK/EU agreement. So both sides have gotten up, shaken hands and agreed to meet periodically to iron out any problems that might arise. Of course, at such moments someone who is desperate to avoid returning to his desk will make some point of arse numbingly unimportance, only to be advised Gerry, glan na cupáin caife agus dún an f**k suas

In other words you don't know either. Does anyone know ?

[GerryT]

Like we would be telling you anything unless we wanted you to know.

You mean if you knew anything you would have something to tell.

[Borchester]

So saying you have a deal is all that matters, but the details of the deal are not important, is that your position then ?

No, I am saying that for a successful deal both sides need to be reasonably content with the results, which appears to be the case with the UK/EU agreement. So both sides have gotten up, shaken hands and agreed to meet periodically to iron out any problems that might arise. Of course, at such moments someone who is desperate to avoid returning to his desk will make some point of arse numbingly unimportance, only to be advised Gerry, glan na cupáin caife agus dún an F@@@ suas

[Sheepy]

Only 56%, minor so.

51% of UK services is from the EU, which the EU is repatriating. Thats the issue I'm highlighting. 80% of the UK economy is service based and its not part of the FTA. The EU is stating to pull that back into the EU, using EU service providers to provide the service, this has been highlighted in Financial service but its not limited to just that.
But you're right the EU provides service for UK customers which will be pulled out of the EU over time, whats the value of that ?

Like we would be telling you anything unless we wanted you to know.