Polls and predicted seats

[Ciaphas]

I expected Parliament to deal with it in house that is what they are elected and paid to do, Brexit was a simple question with two simple answers , out or in , if the majority had voted to stay no problem democracy in action, people like me would have been very disappointed but that is how democracy works.



Sadly some cannot accept that simple fact and only support democracy when they agree and pleased with the result of a vote, does that mean if some do like the result of forthcoming GE the losing minority of voters who disagree should do whatever they can to overturn the result and run it again until they get the result they want? No.  



None of can have it both ways, otherwise Democracy is dead and gone for good.

The referendum reduced an extremely complex issue to a binary choice. This applies to both remain and leave since had remain won there were still valid concerns about our relationship with the EU that should have been looked into rather than brushed under the carpet because 'we won'.



It's as if the country had voted to go on holiday but nobody can agree on where they want to go or how they are going to get there. Those who don't agree with the governments holiday plan, which currently amounts to travelling on a rickety boat with a hole in its hull to undisclosed but likely unpleasant and distant destination, are accused of not wanting to go on holiday at all.



I'm always dissapointed when the Conservatives win but at the very least I know there will be an opportunity to get rid of them in five years time, and potentially sooner if an early election is called. I just have to accept the country is screwed for another five years and hope the damage they cause isn't too bad.



However the two cannot be compared since there is no coming back from Brexit. Yes we can potentially rejoin but we'll never enjoy the same terms of membership or influence we had before, and it's likely the EU will require significant commitment to avoid a repeat of the current Brexit debacle.

[Borchester]

I expected Parliament to deal with it in house that is what they are elected and paid to do, Brexit was a simple question with two simple answers , out or in , if the majority had voted to stay no problem democracy in action, people like me would have been very disappointed but that is how democracy works.



Sadly some cannot accept that simple fact and only support democracy when they agree and pleased with the result of a vote, does that mean if some do like the result of forthcoming GE the losing minority of voters who disagree should do whatever they can to overturn the result and run it again until they get the result they want? No.  



None of can have it both ways, otherwise Democracy is dead and gone for good.

 :hattip  :hattip

[Churchill]

I expected Parliament to deal with it in house that is what they are elected and paid to do, Brexit was a simple question with two simple answers , out or in , if the majority had voted to stay no problem democracy in action, people like me would have been very disappointed but that is how democracy works.



Sadly some cannot accept that simple fact and only support democracy when they agree and pleased with the result of a vote, does that mean if some do like the result of forthcoming GE the losing minority of voters who disagree should do whatever they can to overturn the result and run it again until they get the result they want? No.  



None of can have it both ways, otherwise Democracy is dead and gone for good.

[Ciaphas]

I agree Brexit has divided the entire House, but all MP's are only in place by the will of the voters voting for them of their own free will, those who won the most votes in their constituency ended up in the house Democracy in action.



None of them objected then they got what they wanted their Constituents got what they voted for  



One question was asked of the voters after decades of waiting by many finally came about do you want to stay in the EU or leave the EU, the majority said Leave, some in Parliament have honoured the will of the majority some have not, some have undermined the will of the majority that is not Democracy in action as far as I am concerned.



All the infighting in the House and outside it has significantly weakened the Governments ability in negotiations with the EU from the very start it is little wonder that it has taken so long to get to where we are now, the deal we have now that may come about is personally want I wanted.



I would have much preferred an amicable parting , however due to the Government being blocked at every turn there was no way the EU was going to agree they want to keep us in because it is advantageous to them, and out own Parliament has given them the upper hand on a plate

So you expected parliament to blindly along with the governments vision for Brexit even if MP's didn't feel it was in countries or their constituents interests?



And again we come back to the problem that the 'will of the people' is a completely nebulous concept when it comes down to the details of what form Brexit should take and what the end goal is.



We could also return to the issue that the voting of 37% of the electorate for a poorely defined outcome shouldn't be categorised as the 'will of the people'.

[Churchill]

Conservative MP's largely support a hard Brexit, Labour MP's largely support a soft Brexit with a confirmatory referendum. The number of MP's actively supporting remaining is low.



That is why parliament has struggled to make progress since Article 50 was triggered, not because of anything done by remainer MP's or those who sought to prevent the government from riding roughshod over parliament.



Realistically there was never much hope of Labour and the Conservatives working together given the political tribalism which dominates UK politics.

I agree Brexit has divided the entire House, but all MP's are only in place by the will of the voters voting for them of their own free will, those who won the most votes in their constituency ended up in the house Democracy in action.



None of them objected then they got what they wanted their Constituents got what they voted for  



One question was asked of the voters after decades of waiting by many finally came about do you want to stay in the EU or leave the EU, the majority said Leave, some in Parliament have honoured the will of the majority some have not, some have undermined the will of the majority that is not Democracy in action as far as I am concerned.



All the infighting in the House and outside it has significantly weakened the Governments ability in negotiations with the EU from the very start it is little wonder that it has taken so long to get to where we are now, the deal we have now that may come about is personally want I wanted.



I would have much preferred an amicable parting , however due to the Government being blocked at every turn there was no way the EU was going to agree they want to keep us in because it is advantageous to them, and out own Parliament has given them the upper hand on a plate

[Major Sinic]

You must live in a parallel universe,we are still in the eu because remain have connived and blocked from day one attempts to leave.

:hattip well and accurately said.

[Nick]

Nonsense.



Labour and some Conservative MP's opposed the government because they didn't want a no deal or hard Brexit, not because they didn't want Brexit. Labour still wants to negotiate it's own soft Brexit and hold a confirmatory referendum.



The government has and continues to reap the rewards of trying to impliment their preferred hard version of Brexit without the numbers in parliament to do so.



Brexit has been a massive cock-up from the outset.

Labour want to negotiate them selves into power, nothing more, nothing less.



As for Brexit being a cock-up, it hasn't happened yet, but I hope when it happens you get exactly what you think it will be.  The rest of us will enjoy it.

[Borchester]

 



Confirmatory referendums are an entirely sensible way of checking if the electorate want to continue with a particular course of action once it's final form has been confirmed.

No it isn't. It is simply a certain segment of Remainderdom suggesting that the Brexiters did not understand the issues and that it might not be a bad idea if their votes were cancelled.



There used to be a chap on the old forum called Hyper Duck or some such who was inclined to explain that the 48% remain vote was in fact bigger than the 52% for leave. You are beginning to sound like him.

[Sheepy]

You will never take us alive EU coppers.

[Ciaphas]

No I haven't





But you've proved mine,if someone doesn't share your vision of how to vote it doesn't count.





So it's sensible to have a second referendum (presumably because you hope to overturn the original) because the final form is confirmed.







Right so you think it a good idea to have another vote but then go on to say they don't know what they're agreeing to. :roll:

You have but nevermind.



In the case of Brexit it amounts to nothing more than deciding whether or not to take a leap into the dark, knowing little more than it's going to hurt when you land.



Still it's better to have a choice than none at all.

[Ciaphas]

Leavers knew what we wanted but so far we have been denied what we voted for, we mistakenly expected Parliament to honour what the majority voted for they have not, some MP's including rich people such as Miller have run to the Courts to stop Parliament doing what it is supposed to do.



We now have unelected Judges telling Parliament including the PM what they can and cannot do , so much for Democracy it appears its only  acceptable and valid now if some like the result.



It does not bode well for the future of our Democratic Right to vote how we like, all of us not just some you included

Conservative MP's largely support a hard Brexit, Labour MP's largely support a soft Brexit with a confirmatory referendum. The number of MP's actively supporting remaining is low.



That is why parliament has struggled to make progress since Article 50 was triggered, not because of anything done by remainer MP's or those who sought to prevent the government from riding roughshod over parliament.



Realistically there was never much hope of Labour and the Conservatives working together given the political tribalism which dominates UK politics.

[Borchester]

Anyone who thinks they can predict the outcome of the General Election is deluded.

Exactly Pappy. The latest estimates have the Tories losing seats, but I am sure that you would never believe that



 



CON 39.7% 381

LAB 29.0% 186

LIB 15.6% 20

Brexit 7.8% 0

Green 2.8% 1

SNP 3.2% 42

PlaidC 0.6% 2

UKIP 0.4% 0

Other 0.8% 0

DUP 9

SF 7

Alliance 1

NI Other 1



Tories overall majority is now estimated to be 112 seats

[cromwell]

You have just proved my point.

No I haven't

If someone doesn't share your vision of Brexit then you file them away in the remainer category irrespective of whether or not they support Brexit.

But you've proved mine,if someone doesn't share your vision of how to vote it doesn't count.

Confirmatory referendums are an entirely sensible way of checking if the electorate want to continue with a particular course of action once it's final form has been confirmed.  

So it's sensible to have a second referendum (presumably because you hope to overturn the original) because the final form is confirmed.

Of course the withdrawal agreement is just the start of a very long process and the public have no idea what they are agreeing too in the long run if they are asked to vote on whether or not they support.

Right so you think it a good idea to have another vote but then go on to say they don't know what they're agreeing to. :roll:

[Churchill]

That old canard again.



The UK is still in the EU because leavers can't agree what they want and the government has repeatedly sought to exclude parliament from the process.

Leavers knew what we wanted but so far we have been denied what we voted for, we mistakenly expected Parliament to honour what the majority voted for they have not, some MP's including rich people such as Miller have run to the Courts to stop Parliament doing what it is supposed to do.



We now have unelected Judges telling Parliament including the PM what they can and cannot do , so much for Democracy it appears its only  acceptable and valid now if some like the result.



It does not bode well for the future of our Democratic Right to vote how we like, all of us not just some you included

[papasmurf]

The real issue is the absence of a plan which left the process completely rudderless. The referendum should only have ever been advertised as an opinion survey, not a deciding vote.



Cameron just never expected to lose.

Other them Britain becoming an American state, there appears to be no plan.