Parts of NHS Face Collapse in 3wks/Ambulances: 9hr waits to hand over patients

[Nick]

I said that Labour did not introduce fees for uni nursing courses in England

Why should nurses get tuition for free? Lawyers, accountants, doctors and the like all pay for university degrees, why should they be any different?

[Borg Refinery]

Some form of payment for most people is inevitable,the NHS is being asked to do things it cannot do and still support basic services.

I would think some services might be better outsourced and maybe supported on a charitable footing.

Spoken like a true Tory.

[Good old]

Are you talking to yourself or forgotten who you are
As a once long term labour supporter no longer fooled by the contrived concern of a party more interested in themselves and not the real people who were their bedrock support.

As I'm not actually called Good old, I think a little licence was within bounds. My thoughts of course are one and the same. Thomas introduced Good old, to a third party as being the purveyor of (porkies)  But Good old, was not the teller of untruths and was in fact right . And I said it for him.

[cromwell]

More statements with as much value as a piece of wet toilet paper..
Good old, was right , there were no Fees for uni nursing courses  in England, until the Tories got their hands on them.
And every Scots school child should know that uni fees in England incre :-\ased to as much as £9,000 . Under the Tories.
So lucky to have the SNP indeed ,or Labour would be well below the Tories on there ,to be avoided list.
As for the public not having selective amnesia. Come on Thomas, you know better than that I'm sure.

Are you talking to yourself or forgotten who you are
As a once long term labour supporter no longer fooled by the contrived concern of a party more interested in themselves and not the real people who were their bedrock support.

[Good old]

The facts about the history of tuition fees in Scotland are stark and unarguable:

– in 1997 when Labour came to power, higher education was free.

– the Labour government then introduced fees of £1000 a year across the UK, which meant a four-year degree in Scotland suddenly cost £4000.

– in 2000, the Labour-led Scottish Executive replaced said fees with a "graduate endowment", meaning that Scottish students paid £2000 retrospectively towards the cost of their education – half of what it had cost them under Labour's fees system in 1999, but still £2000 more than the £0 they'd been paying in 1997.

In the space of three years, then, while claiming to have "abolished" tuition fees, Labour had in fact increased the cost of a degree in Scotland from zero to £2000. Those are the cold, hard, unyielding truths.

I have not said that Labour, did not introduce or increase fees in Scotland . I said that Labour did not introduce fees for uni nursing courses in England,. If the SNP had not saved the  Scots, they would be paying as much as £9,000 a year right now.across the board .

[Thomas]

More statements with as much value as a piece of wet toilet paper..
Good old, was right , there were no Fees for uni nursing courses  in England, until the Tories got their hands on them.
And every Scots school child should know that uni fees in England increased to as much as £9,000 . Under the Tories.
So lucky to have the SNP indeed ,or Labour would be well below the Tories on there ,to be avoided list.
As for the public not having selective amnesia. Come on Thomas, you know better than that I'm sure.

i think this is called dancing on the head of a semantic pin while screaming tory bad.

[Thomas]

More statements with as much value as a piece of wet toilet paper..
Good old, was right , there were no Fees for uni nursing courses  in England, until the Tories got their hands on them.
And every Scots school child should know that uni fees in England increased to as much as £9,000 . Under the Tories.
So lucky to have the SNP indeed ,or Labour would be well below the Tories on there ,to be avoided list.
As for the public not having selective amnesia. Come on Thomas, you know better than that I'm sure.

The facts about the history of tuition fees in Scotland are stark and unarguable:

– in 1997 when Labour came to power, higher education was free.

– the Labour government then introduced fees of £1000 a year across the UK, which meant a four-year degree in Scotland suddenly cost £4000.

– in 2000, the Labour-led Scottish Executive replaced said fees with a "graduate endowment", meaning that Scottish students paid £2000 retrospectively towards the cost of their education – half of what it had cost them under Labour's fees system in 1999, but still £2000 more than the £0 they'd been paying in 1997.

In the space of three years, then, while claiming to have "abolished" tuition fees, Labour had in fact increased the cost of a degree in Scotland from zero to £2000. Those are the cold, hard, unyielding truths.

[Good old]

totally agree sheep , and as you can see good old has been caught out a cracker telling new labour porkies , and then trying and abysmally failing to cover his tracks.

Labour in scotland normally try and keep quiet about the scottish education system , cause as soon as they mention the snp record , tuition fees get brought up and they run a mile.

Every scottish schoolchild , never mind anyone else can tell you it was the labour party who brought in tuition fees and the snp abolished them.( despite tony blair promising in 1997 not to bring in tuition fees)

More statements with as much value as a piece of wet toilet paper..
Good old, was right , there were no Fees for uni nursing courses  in England, until the Tories got their hands on them.
And every Scots school child should know that uni fees in England increased to as much as £9,000 . Under the Tories.
So lucky to have the SNP indeed ,or Labour would be well below the Tories on there ,to be avoided list.
As for the public not having selective amnesia. Come on Thomas, you know better than that I'm sure.

[Thomas]

Hands up ,rushing around again. 2010 , Tory,/Lib coalition. Wolf in Sheep's clothing.  Makes far more sense.

...and the labour partys past record is something you will never ever escape from no matter how hard you try and dismiss it.

Sadly for you  , the public dont have selective amnesia.

[Thomas]

Labour always falls back on NHS first, then Education and finally the economy, they have been telling us how they will put it all right for generations, never happens of course or otherwise who would need to vote for them. On the other hand, of course once everyone gets sick of listening to them just import millions new voters who will listen. For a while at least.

totally agree sheep , and as you can see good old has been caught out a cracker telling new labour porkies , and then trying and abysmally failing to cover his tracks.

Labour in scotland normally try and keep quiet about the scottish education system , cause as soon as they mention the snp record , tuition fees get brought up and they run a mile.

Every scottish schoolchild , never mind anyone else can tell you it was the labour party who brought in tuition fees and the snp abolished them.( despite tony blair promising in 1997 not to bring in tuition fees)

[Thomas]

Some form of payment for most people is inevitable,the NHS is being asked to do things it cannot do and still support basic services.

I would think some services might be better outsourced and maybe supported on a charitable footing.

I think so too cromwell. The snp are dead against it though , and of course im sure you agree you wouldnt trust labour or tory to deal with it.

The french system is streets ahead of the holier than thou nhs in scotland and england , and if i rememebr aright in part its because their part private system allows them to spend more per head of population on their health system than in the uk nations.

The snp have done wonders with scotlands nhs , but of course medium to long term , if scotland doesnt get independence , then the funding  , which is completely under the control of westmisnter , coupled with new labours disasterous PFI legacy on scottish hospitals that we have discussed before , will eventually hamstring the scottish system.

The french health system has been consistently better than scotland or englands for as far back as i can remember. My brother in law( whose english and has lived in france for 20 years) says its far better than what he was used to , and of course the WHO and other organisations constantly rate it as the best in the world (of course it does still have its flaws).

I wouldnt want labour or tory anywhere near re organising it though.

[Good old]

Some form of payment for most people is inevitable,the NHS is being asked to do things it cannot do and still support basic services.

I would think some services might be better outsourced and maybe supported on a charitable footing.

Is that not where   we find ourselves now? Every first world health service costs the exchequer ,  to some degree.
No matter the reasons, our fifth largest world  economy is no longer keeping up with other comparable nations in the amount of money per head invested in our health service. Regardless if funds are injected into private contractors ,those contractors must not be employed merely because they are cheap.
Privatisation is only as useful as its competence allows . All to often it does not prove competent to do what it is employed to do. In particular in the area of administration of  the service to the public, something I have fallen foul of  ,not once but on several occasions . Due to private company incompetence . A problem all to common I understand , from talking around. Privatisation or otherwise ,no amount of money can overcome the acceptance of blatant incompetence .
Free at the point of need must remain the concept ,if a huge section of our society is not to be excluded from access to prompt good quality surgery and long stay services.
We are living in a world of food banks. It will be interesting to see how we deal with a world of charitable medicine.

[cromwell]

Im more and more coming around to the idea of scrapping the nhs in its current form.

If scotland ever becomes indy , i would hope eventually a party somewhere will reform it and re design it away from what is currently in place towards the french system of part private part nhs.

Across the uk as it currently stands ,all we are going to continue to have is both labour/tory doing very little to improve , merely maintain the gradual slide of the current system which does not have a long term future.

I think we have been discussing the nhs over the years cromwell across the various forums , and very little has improved in that time wether under the thirteen years of new labour , or tory at westminster , never mind the devolved parliaments.

Sure the snp have done well as can be expected under a system where their hands are tied. Free at the point of use in my opinion has to end eventually , in line with the french and european models , not the yank system , but i appreciate its going to be difficult for any political party to deal with it.

Some form of payment for most people is inevitable,the NHS is being asked to do things it cannot do and still support basic services.

I would think some services might be better outsourced and maybe supported on a charitable footing.

[Good old]

The great supporter of privatisation. The man asked to take a post within the folds of the 2000  Tory /Lib coalition.
A sheep in Wolves clothing if ever there was one. But certainly not considered as inept by Cameron and Co. His previous record certainly didn't worry the Tories,  as much as it may worry you.

Hands up ,rushing around again. 2010 , Tory,/Lib coalition. Wolf in Sheep's clothing.  Makes far more sense.

[Sheepy]

im simply picking you up on the continuing new labour cac that you spout on this forum.

Watching you new labour types continually and stubbornly spout out the same tired old rhetoric that people have been seeing through for years is laughable.

I have seen numerous new labour party branch managers in scotland dutifully spout off the same tired line , and its as funny as feck watching nurses and many others go onto their twitter timeline and angrily tell them they are still paying off their student debts from new labours time in power before the snp finally did return the cost of higher education in scotland to zero that is was before labour got into  power.

Labour always falls back on NHS first, then Education and finally the economy, they have been telling us how they will put it all right for generations, never happens of course or otherwise who would need to vote for them. On the other hand, of course once everyone gets sick of listening to them just import millions new voters who will listen. For a while at least.