Parts of NHS Face Collapse in 3wks/Ambulances: 9hr waits to hand over patients

[Good old]

As a matter of interest putting the obvious fraud aside, how come the worlds 5th largest employer struggles to cope even discounting the current pandemic, with the leaps forward healthcare has taken over the last 50 years, how come it is always broken, or ever fixable? There you go there is a soapbox.

As  said ,I don't have perfect answers Sheep,  but I could have said something about the size of the NHS in regard to people working for it. For a start how many people actually work directly for the NHS?  Would it not be the case that if our health system was completely in the hands of private interests those interests may well employ a similar amount of people ,if they were giving a completely comparable service? Or possibly if they were not.?
Regardless,  the NHS uses a lot of people in one way or another, surely the actual question  should be .Why are we very short of well trained nurses, and Doctors. And yet employing people in other areas at a rate noted in the setting of the worlds largest employers. Of course this question has to be aimed at the present government as they have had ten years to alter any areas of overmanning and in the case of front line under manning.
Sometimes these situations occur because of factors a little outside of the box everyone concentrates on. In the past the NHS was happily accepted as a useful source of reasonably paid employment to help in the fight against unemployment. That may well have happened under previous Labour governments.
Going forward any such thoughts should be revisited. As the countries financial health continues to change not for the better as we speak.
I would be more inclined to ask a Tory regime . Why spend ten years to maintain  and subsidise an employment policy so conducive to the arguments of those that are hell bent on bringing the NHS to its knees.

[Thomas]

Proverbs 26:4

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

well thats a bit rich coming from you isnt it dyno?

No good coming on this forum trying to play the serious intellectual debater who wants to in depth discuss the worlds problems and trade views , while dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot not worthy of debate.

Need i remind you it was only in the latter part of last year that you were banned from this forum for throwing one of the biggest childish hissy fits i have seen on the interwebby in a long time merely over the  topic of immigration simply because no one agreed with you.

It ended more or less with you telling the forum you wished deppity dawg had had his throat slit in northern ireland during his years of service.

So dont come on here now trying to play the serious adult debater who merely wishes for an intellectual discussion on the issues of the day.

We all witnessed you having a total paddy when folk disagreed with you.

[cromwell]

I know you did, because Che is fecking with your head, the point was though, unless like I did you can say what is inherently wrong in the first place you just go around in circles throwing money around that just feeds the sharks and never fixes anything.

Yeah well I was suffering force ten earache from OH  about head buried in iPad instead of listening to her 

[Sheepy]

Apologies Sheeps I answered the wrong post

I know you did, because Che is fecking with your head, the point was though, unless like I did you can say what is inherently wrong in the first place you just go around in circles throwing money around that just feeds the sharks and never fixes anything.

[cromwell]

Did I?

Apologies Sheeps I answered the wrong post

[Good old]

As a matter of interest putting the obvious fraud aside, how come the worlds 5th largest employer struggles to cope even discounting the current pandemic, with the leaps forward healthcare has taken over the last 50 years, how come it is always broken, or ever fixable? There you go there is a soapbox.

I can not give you give you the answer to that. But sometimes it plays to a political need to not only give the idea something is failing  but to induce it's failure by not supporting it fully at all costs.
I think fraud will always be found even in the homes of the righteous. Food hampers for the kids comes to mind .

[Sheepy]

Why are you asking him when you have clearly stated bored and not interested I guess in what anyone has to say other than yourself.

Did I?

[Sheepy]

In simple terms the massive costs of restructuring the NHS fit for the future could not , be achieved without massive borrowing .  We know that PFI  had been introduced as a tool to avoid appearing to raise the national debt. Not by Labour of course.
In the event a good many PFI agreements proved to be sound. For some though , that was not the case. Yet it hasn't stopped Tory governments continuing to use such agreements.
You are not at all exceptional in being able to point the failings out. Your failing is damming a complete situation because parts of it could have been done better . Now go back to your dreams of a world with no nails to tread on.

As a matter of interest putting the obvious fraud aside, how come the worlds 5th largest employer struggles to cope even discounting the current pandemic, with the leaps forward healthcare has taken over the last 50 years, how come it is always broken, or ever fixable? There you go there is a soapbox.

[Good old]

So no you've got no way of proving PFI's were any good nor necessary.

I didn't think you did yet you say you did the research.

The rest is completely irrelevant as I care not what you think. According to you vote labour is the answer to every single question.

It is boring.

Enough.

In simple terms the massive costs of restructuring the NHS fit for the future could not , be achieved without massive borrowing .  We know that PFI  had been introduced as a tool to avoid appearing to raise the national debt. Not by Labour of course.
In the event a good many PFI agreements proved to be sound. For some though , that was not the case. Yet it hasn't stopped Tory governments continuing to use such agreements.
You are not at all exceptional in being able to point the failings out. Your failing is damming a complete situation because parts of it could have been done better . Now go back to your dreams of a world with no nails to tread on.

[Borg Refinery]

No voting Tory was a means to an end,and if you think Frank Sidebottom  is the answer (and you'll have no idea who I am talking about) then you really are clueless

Your pointless assumptions win out yet again, actually I do know who/what that is. A highly corny comic sideshow act I caught on telly once or twice..

When I look at the goods in the Tory shop window I know I'm dealing in the main with a bunch of shysters and liars who want to part me from my money and do it all to their betterment.

Yeh then you vote for them and endorse their policies.

The End.

To call it stupid would be a disservice to the word stupid.

If I see a nail sticking out a floorboard, I don't think "at least it's honest about being z nail" and then stick my foot on it.

Only a true genius would do that.

You sir, are a true genius, congrats. I'm glad to offer my services as the forum dynorod to remove the shit from people's brains. 

[Borg Refinery]

And what have you got to offer beyond extreme arrogance ?
Please show us how to save our world , as you have your finger on every pulse.
I get bored with idiots that think there is a complete fail safe answer to any question concerning the human condition.
You are just one more on here  concerned with  only standing on the perimeter of the real world. With no actual purpose beyond saying how poorly the world has been run and perfect it should be. We can and all do that . What makes you so frigging superior?
As for research on PFI it's all been done, to death . It does not take the brain of Britain to understand its weaknesses. So please don't kid yourself.
But it is only a closed mind that can not accept  it was not all bad. As the Medici,s knew ,"It sometimes takes a bad to create a good".

So no you've got no way of proving PFI's were any good nor necessary.

I didn't think you did yet you say you did the research.

The rest is completely irrelevant as I care not what you think. According to you vote labour is the answer to every single question.

It is boring.

Enough.

[cromwell]

And your idea is to add even more debt and bureaucracy, and privatise it and to make it cost 10x the amount like the US system.

No decent European society has a system that charges for basic treatments.

And you can ask your precious Tories who you fully admitted you voted for (yeh clueless right) why they keep funding the stupid stuff that you're talking about, which is probably not a large amount anyway.

But if it makes you feel better to blame Cranky Corny Carmelina for her botox which makes her look like she's permanently frowning and makes her take everything far too seriously, or blame swallowed tooth fillings or new drugs that can turn folk autistic then so be it...

You voted Tory, you continually endorse Tory policy, you constantly extol Bojo.

But ok you're a lefty.. sure.. 

No voting Tory was a means to an end,and if you think Frank Sidebottom  is the answer (and you'll have no idea who I am talking about) then you really are clueless

When I look at the goods in the Tory shop window I know I'm dealing in the main with a bunch of shysters and liars who want to part me from my money and do it all to their betterment.
But it's all pretty much there in plain sight in the terms and conditions of purchase.

When I look at similar items in the labour shop window then I'm told my purchase will bring me a better life,all the good things and how they are a not for profit business and they are doing it not for themselves  but the welfare of all.
The reality is their terms and conditions pretty much mirror those of their leading rivals.

Over the years and being a once labour voter I've seen people like blind Pugh trying to ram ID cards and biometrics down our throats ,having shares in such businesses had no bearing of course.

How about the worthy councillors of the City of Manchester spending thousands on comfy seats for their backsides whilst cutting services too,I can cite other profligate behaviour,how they've fallen over themselves to accept devolved power from the tories and self aggrandisement,I mean they do realise it's just a blame shifting con can't they? I did from the start.

How about our worthy Mayor foisted on a population who didn't want one,again a figure to take the blame but hey look at the opportunities for a failed MP and it's got to be better and more lucrative than strictly long term hasn't it?

No Dynorod you are a dreamer and clueless,there was never a hope of reform in the eu and it is surely an uphill struggle with westminister,but it is doable.....just.

[Good old]

You're living up to your name. 

BUT... oh boy... "but"...

That's a yes-no answer.

No it can be denied, you are denying it.

Ok.

It was alot better but the PFI issues were storing up future problems which would bite future govts whether Lab or Tory.

Which is part of the current issues.

I personally do not care what anyone on here thinks.

The issues are complex and complex 'blame apportioning' is wasted time unless you're an specialist with intimate knowledge of its inner workings at NIHCE. It isn't straightforward.

And I get bored of idiots who oversimplify everything down to one thing, or their latest daily mail or mirror fad. It's so boring. Don't bother I don't care.

Try doing detailed research then get back to me.

And what have you got to offer beyond extreme arrogance ?
Please show us how to save our world , as you have your finger on every pulse.
I get bored with idiots that think there is a complete fail safe answer to any question concerning the human condition.
You are just one more on here  concerned with  only standing on the perimeter of the real world. With no actual purpose beyond saying how poorly the world has been run and perfect it should be. We can and all do that . What makes you so frigging superior?
As for research on PFI it's all been done, to death . It does not take the brain of Britain to understand its weaknesses. So please don't kid yourself.
But it is only a closed mind that can not accept  it was not all bad. As the Medici,s knew ,"It sometimes takes a bad to create a good".

[Borg Refinery]

Yes the use of some PFI agreements were poorly constructed. It can not be denied.

You're living up to your name. 

BUT... oh boy... "but"...

but I'm old enough to fully understand what that borrowing actually bought for the modernisation of the whole structure of the NHS.

That's a yes-no answer.

No it can be denied, you are denying it.

Ok.

And as the previous twenty plus years of Tory rule had if anything reduced the capabilities of what was an antique structure, housed in antique structures. That would include the quality of nursing education.  A massive spend was absolutely needed, and may well be the reason the NHS still exists.
We can argue about the cost , and our Tory friends always will. But Until recently the NHS could proudly claim to be the best there was, and that was were the value lay.

It was alot better but the PFI issues were storing up future problems which would bite future govts whether Lab or Tory.

Which is part of the current issues.

I personally do not care what anyone on here thinks.

The issues are complex and complex 'blame apportioning' is wasted time unless you're an specialist with intimate knowledge of its inner workings at NIHCE. It isn't straightforward.

And I get bored of idiots who oversimplify everything down to one thing, or their latest daily mail or mirror fad. It's so boring. Don't bother I don't care.

Try doing detailed research then get back to me.

The tax demand for some of the gyppo's is a pretty unenviable deal but they're about to be foreclosed anyway, who knows. That's what I heard on the ground. The revolutionaries are being evicted from their campsite.

That's a shame..

[Sheepy]

Yes the use of some PFI agreements were poorly constructed.

LOL covering up for fraud more like, wait until Che gets his green deals, the fraud will be rampant.