Parts of NHS Face Collapse in 3wks/Ambulances: 9hr waits to hand over patients

[Thomas]

I would say you invariably tell me I'm no good at debate ,whenever I put you on a spot.

Where have you put me on the spot good old?

Its obvious you don't have any intention of addressing what is put to you.

I have addressed everysingle thing you put to me about your labour heroes.

I have shown their incompetence over pfi , compared to the snp , i have shown their duplicity over tuition fees , while the snp removed them from scotland and so on.

Like very other labour supporter i come across , you have nothing to offer except screamin tory bad .

Tory bad is so easy to address its laughable.

Whats worrying though is 11 years out of power ,and you still dont get it  , or why people see through labour.

,as the best anywhere than being told by a banker oriented Tory government

Banker orientated tory government?

Blair and brown were told to regulate the banking industry , and they refused to do so to the cheers of the tories at westminer , and now you offer some illusive reference to the banking industry being tory?

Stope it good old , im in fecking stitches here listening to this cac.

[Good old]

its called debate and you seem particularly poor at it.

The thought there are people like you walking about england wanting to hold your country back disgusts me to the core.

No one could ever accuse you of thinking outside the box good old could they?

nope i didnt say that .

You are making things up as you lose the argument.

Labour can support what they like . What i dont like , nor many other people , is when they try and straddle the fence like last december to try and fool the public who theythink are gullible.

Laboursduplicity , of which pfi is an exmaple is the point.


its never ever labours mess....always someone else.

I would say you invariably tell me I'm no good at debate ,whenever I put you on a spot. You  take what I have said and then tell me what you want it to mean.   Your response I'm no good at debate. Maybe. How would you know though ? Its obvious you don't have any intention of addressing what is put to you.
You clearly said Labour are supposed to not like PFI. What can I say .
Of course it has at times been a Labour mess. Thats the whole point. There is not a political party movement on this earth that will not mess up at one time or another. In particular on detail.  It's the reasons behind what is thought a mistake in cost  that should count, and I would sooner have the NHS. Left by Labour, acknowledged , at that time ,as the best anywhere than being told by a banker oriented Tory government and its media lap dogs  that producing it was only to be viewed as over spending.

[Thomas]

What's the point of telling you anything?

its called debate and you seem particularly poor at it.

The thought there are people like you walking about england wanting to hold your country back disgusts me to the core.

No one could ever accuse you of thinking outside the box good old could they?

Your ideas for Labour, says Labour don't support PFI.

nope i didnt say that .

You are making things up as you lose the argument.

Labour can support what they like . What i dont like , nor many other people , is when they try and straddle the fence like last december to try and fool the public who theythink are gullible.

Laboursduplicity , of which pfi is an exmaple is the point.

As for Labours mess. It was never Labours mess.

its never ever labours mess....always someone else.

[Good old]

What you an englishman telling me  , a scot , the english people are too stupid to vote in a reasonable mainstream alternative to labour and conservative?

I have more faith in your people than status quoers like you.

Why would the tories want to do that? Are you not reading my posts or something? You seem to be talking past me  all the time.

The tories support PFI , labour are not supposed to support PFI , and that is the problem and why after your party having brought them in , you pissed off millions of your own voters and now can't get them back.

The tories arent pissing off their own supproters for doing exactly what they say on the tin.

What is it about labours duplicity you dont understand?

Yes they are.

Labour as has been proved again and again , are far more financially incompetent than either the snp or the tories. Its a constant thorn in your side every general election.

what a pathetic cop out of an excuse.

Every single labour branch manager in scotland  , johann lamont , ian gray , kezia dugdale  etc etc has repeatedly told the scottish people labour in scotland from local to holyrood level can do nothing with out the say so of the party headquarters in london , so what are you talking about?

The blame lies fair and square with the labour leadership in london , not the monkeys.

Thats correct , but when labour do it as i showed with pfi contracts for example , they leave debt 5/6 times the amount and the snp for example managed to half that same debt because they are fiscally responsible .

The tories have spent ten years clearing up the mess labour left, so on it goes.

I wouldnt trust labour with the keys to the feckin piggy bank never mind the national treasurey.

aye it can , beacuse as we have discussed the beauty of pfi for example so beloved of blair and brown was the debt didnt show up on their books.......it was placed on the books of future governments to deal with.

labour are financially incompetent and the public know it.

What's the point of telling you anything? When you read into what is said to you whatever pleases your only line.  Labour bad.
Your ideas for Labour, says Labour don't support PFI. Your laughable at times, you spend acres of space telling me how Labour used PFI to excess. Then expect the world to believe Labour did not support PFI. The duplicity would seem to be all yours.
No they are not any more financially incompetent .it's just that as I pointed out,  you and the Tory media, never want to talk about the massive failings that Tory chancellors of the not to distant past have presided over.
It's a fact that some PFI agreements in Labours time were  not just ones that proved to be more expensive than they  should . But were local government arrangements. We have established that .  You, and the SNP. need the blame to lay in London, as you say. Because it wasn't the Tories you ousted from your path, it was Labour,. And even though Labour may be dead in that country you and they can't stop kicking.
As for Labours mess. It was never Labours mess. It was the mess of people, , many of which can't pump enough money into Tory ,coffers, and Tory, supporting media, to. Convey the myth , that the banking crisis was anything other than a bankers balls up ,plain and simple. The government had no more control over the situation than was the case else where in the world.  And if the Tories had held sway then the government would have had even less control of how banks were conducting their affairs.
The public know whatever they hear of most, and loudest . Sad but fact

[Borg Refinery]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/covid-19-nhs-may-run-out-of-icu-beds-boris-johnson-warns-1.4457699

Seems like Boris is echoing Whitty in OP link.

I think it's going to be a tough March/Feb..rest of month.

Hopefully it will all be over soon and lessons will be learnt.. by the real heroes, the NHS staff & scientists who've worked hard to save vour bacon despite the attempts to thwart them at every turn by stupid bureaucrats of all kinds. The NHS staff & scientists found ways & means of more efficiently doing things to compensate despite everything.

I read that many scientists secretly pooled their research while the drugs companies engaged in trying to restrict certain efforts but.. I won't get into that whole can of worms.

[Thomas]

Labour is still struggling to regain credibility on the economy, nearly 13 years after the global financial crisis.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/06/17/conservatives-still-more-trusted-economy-can-they-


Vast majority of polls i have seen over the last decade , both scottish and uk wide , have labour extremely distrusted and seen as incompetent on the economy.

Whatever your opinion good old , the fact of the matter is the vast majority of the public dont agree with you on the issue.

Walk about glasgow , or any scottish town and city , and the people cant believe the difference since they kicked out the financially incompetent and massively corrupt labour party.

Labour ran glasgow for the best part of 80 years and dragged glasgow fro mthe second city of empire to one of the worst in the western world , and now glasgow has begun the long road to recovery since kicking those barstewards out.

[Thomas]

People like me know the alternative in England would be an extreme.

What you an englishman telling me  , a scot , the english people are too stupid to vote in a reasonable mainstream alternative to labour and conservative?

I have more faith in your people than status quoers like you.

So you demonstrate how these PFI  agreements can be revisited. Pity our Tory friends don't do that.

Why would the tories want to do that? Are you not reading my posts or something? You seem to be talking past me  all the time.

The tories support PFI , labour are not supposed to support PFI , and that is the problem and why after your party having brought them in , you pissed off millions of your own voters and now can't get them back.

The tories arent pissing off their own supproters for doing exactly what they say on the tin.

What is it about labours duplicity you dont understand?

Labour are no more financially incompetent than the Tories .

Yes they are.

Labour as has been proved again and again , are far more financially incompetent than either the snp or the tories. Its a constant thorn in your side every general election.

The problem being they were trusted to make those deals by their own means.

what a pathetic cop out of an excuse.

Every single labour branch manager in scotland  , johann lamont , ian gray , kezia dugdale  etc etc has repeatedly told the scottish people labour in scotland from local to holyrood level can do nothing with out the say so of the party headquarters in london , so what are you talking about?

The blame lies fair and square with the labour leadership in london , not the monkeys.

Every government of all persuasions have left a debt to future generations

Thats correct , but when labour do it as i showed with pfi contracts for example , they leave debt 5/6 times the amount and the snp for example managed to half that same debt because they are fiscally responsible .

The tories have spent ten years clearing up the mess labour left, so on it goes.

I wouldnt trust labour with the keys to the feckin piggy bank never mind the national treasurey.

Our borrowing can be counted in trillions of pounds .And that can not be put at Labours door alone by any means.

aye it can , beacuse as we have discussed the beauty of pfi for example so beloved of blair and brown was the debt didnt show up on their books.......it was placed on the books of future governments to deal with.

labour are financially incompetent and the public know it.

[Good old]

Wrong, Harold Wilson removed milk from 11 and upwards in 1968. Three years before Maggie removed the remainder. Labour could have reinstated it if they wanted in their next term but they didn't.

Wrong, Labour introduced university tuition fees in 1998. The Tories upped them when they came in as Oxbridge were languishing around 12 and 14 in world rankings due to underfunding by Labour.  They were back to 1 and 2 in the world until recently.

The fastest rise in debt until covid came under Labour. Debt to GDP was going down until the virus hit, it was back under control after Labour left the country with no money again.


As for 'It doesn't work', an 80 odd seat majority says that no one wants a Labour government so get over it.

How can what  I have said be wrong? Thatcher jumped in both feet. The Tory/LD coalition jumped in both feet. Nothing wrong at all.
The debt that incurred after the international banking crisis was not Labours. Other than the fact that some was done under their watch in order to save a complete collapse of not just our banks but internationally. Your charge is a myth people like yourself either want to perpetuate. Or if gullible want believe. How the hell could Labour be held responsible for the woes of an international banking system? Take one look at any borrowing chart and it is obvious the excessive borrowing and the extension of that borrowing under the Tories was tied to the banking crisis . And please don't say Labour, did not restrict the banks enough in their time in power. They spent most of the time in power warding off Tory calls for less regulation for the banks. Prime example of complicity in the general attitudes and actions of bankers in general by Tory politics.

[papasmurf]

don't like it but to claim that one Political Party is worse than another is silly and untrue.

It is true, the Tories  are just the worst by a very long way of a pretty shabby shower.

[T00ts]

Given the cock-ups, incompetence, and contract for friends in the Tory Government it will end up anything but the Tories please.

I don't think it matters where you are or who is elected or otherwise, as leader, even on a small scale in the Parish Council, there will always be 'jobs for the boys'. I don't like it but to claim that one Political Party is worse than another is silly and untrue. Human nature being what it is those known to us will always be favoured over the stranger.

[Borchester]

Given the cock-ups, incompetence, and contract for friends in the Tory Government it will end up anything but the Tories please.

Or the party of Pappy and senile spite.

[papasmurf]

As for 'It doesn't work', an 80 odd seat majority says that no one wants a Labour government so get over it.

Given the cock-ups, incompetence, and contract for friends in the Tory Government it will end up anything but the Tories please.

[Nick]

Who jumped in feet first on the school milk issue Thatcher,. Who jumped in feet first on uni fees? Who has to have a Pro footballer up their rear ends on school meals ? Who manage an increase in homelessness every time they gain power?  Who says  a little borrowing will bankrupt the country, then shows us how ridiculous that is with massive borrowing . It doesn't work Nick.

Wrong, Harold Wilson removed milk from 11 and upwards in 1968. Three years before Maggie removed the remainder. Labour could have reinstated it if they wanted in their next term but they didn't.

Wrong, Labour introduced university tuition fees in 1998. The Tories upped them when they came in as Oxbridge were languishing around 12 and 14 in world rankings due to underfunding by Labour.  They were back to 1 and 2 in the world until recently.

The fastest rise in debt until covid came under Labour. Debt to GDP was going down until the virus hit, it was back under control after Labour left the country with no money again.


As for 'It doesn't work', an 80 odd seat majority says that no one wants a Labour government so get over it.

[Good old]

of course , and thats how labour and their supporters like you hope it remains.

Dont discount the english people though tolerating this farce of a situation for much longer. Labours greatest concern would be a party like the snp arising in england and totally annihilating them like they have done in scotland.

Its people like you who wish to maintain the tired broken status quo to the detriment of the enlgish people .

Thats is factually correct.

Labour are completely out of their depth economically as everyone has seen. In this thread alone , the PFI debacle under labour highlights that fact alone , never mind elsewhere.

Labour governed for thirteen years at uk level under the sunshine of an economic boom created by the previous hard work of the tories , and by the end of it , had bankrupted the uk and left a note saying there is no money left to the incoming tory/lib coalition , who then had to take up the reins and spend years rectifying the damage labour created.

The snp similarly had to do the same in scotland.People in scotland have never had it so good since we kicked labour out of power both at holyrood , and westminster.

Labour are well known for being completely economically incompetent , as the tories and snp have proved beyond any doubt.


Your ignorance is showing yet again.

Scotland can't borrow any money under the terms set by labour when they created the farce that was devolution , and it was only recently the tories allowed the snp government at holyrood to be able to borrow a tiny amount of money. So thats why.

i just proved it to you in this thread , the snp reset the terms of some pfi contracts to half that what labour had done , so what are you waffling about?

Labour.......completely fiscally incompetent all round , as both the scottish and english governments have found when they had to sort out the mess labour left behind after their 13 years of prfligacy and tax spend and wastefullness.

Labour run local authorities like north lanarkshire for example , under the direction of the labour party in london.

Hoist by your own petard.

there is indeed. Contracts both labour governments and local labour run administrations signed the scottish taxpayer up to , and the snp have done thier best to get out of but coudlnt in many cases.

Some of these PFI contracts and massive debt labour left will run to 2030 and beyond.

Labour as ever indebting generations in the future with their profligacy .How your party does love spending other peoples money and indebting children.

People like me know the alternative in England would be an extreme. That would be hiding a demand under its cloak, that when exposed we would not want to pay.
So you demonstrate how these PFI  agreements can be revisited. Pity our Tory friends don't do that. Oh of course Why throw an expensive mistake away, when it's real value can be passed on to Thomas.
Labour are no more financially incompetent than the Tories . The Tories, actually did very nearly break the bank on two occasions under Thatcher, and Major. And you should know it. But for a dedicated hater of all things Labour, the mind will not go there will it.
Yes local authorities had government go ahead on PFI deals . The problem being they were trusted to make those deals by their own means.
Every government of all persuasions have left a debt to future generations . Claiming Labour like to spend other people's money , for the sake of doing so is a pretty basic ridiculous claim to make  on the basis of one particular government having allowed some local authorities to borrow at what were to prove extortionate rates ,which  was in the grand scheme of our national borrowing a minor glitch. That as you have demonstrated could be adjusted if the will was there to do so.
Our borrowing can be counted in trillions of pounds .And that can not be put at Labours door alone by any means.
And quiet frankly ,even if COVID, had not visited, Boris was , if you can take him at his word, making plans to borrow even more .

[Good old]

Quite! And who first removed milk from schools? Labour but Thatcher is the nasty one. When did the first good bank appear? Under Labour. They forget to examine the truth.

Who jumped in feet first on the school milk issue Thatcher,. Who jumped in feet first on uni fees? Who has to have a Pro footballer up their rear ends on school meals ? Who manage an increase in homelessness every time they gain power?  Who says  a little borrowing will bankrupt the country, then shows us how ridiculous that is with massive borrowing . It doesn't work Nick.