Homeopaths

[Baron von Lotsov]

When people say that, I'm reminded of our old church treasurer, a really wise Christian man. I had said something like "You have to keep an open mind", to which he replied "If you do that people can throw a lot of rubbish in".  ::

My mind is always open to reason. Their rubbish never gets in. After that their false love turns to hate. I've seen the flip side of these con merchants.

[Baron von Lotsov]

Can I assume that all the deniers have used these and found them wanting? Without personal experience I really don't understand your views.

I do not like being ripped off and am strongly opposed to these people. Giving them your money is the very last thing you should do.

[T00ts]

Never thought that you were, not for one moment. Just adding to the debate.





When people say that, I'm reminded of our old church treasurer, a really wise Christian man. I had said something like "You have to keep an open mind", to which he replied "If you do that people can throw a lot of rubbish in".  ::

 :hattip I'll be careful!  

[Barry]

I am not a silly gullible stupid person Barry.

Never thought that you were, not for one moment. Just adding to the debate.

I believe in an open mind.

When people say that, I'm reminded of our old church treasurer, a really wise Christian man. I had said something like "You have to keep an open mind", to which he replied "If you do that people can throw a lot of rubbish in".  ::

[T00ts]

I am not a silly gullible stupid person Barry. I maintain that there is a lot that science cannot explain and equally a lot that science has discovered, leaving far more that they haven't even touched yet. I believe in mind over matter as part of the healing process, but I also believe in a higher power than us. You should know me better than to think me putting anything equal or better than faith in God, my comparison was in those who dismiss any beliefs outside the rather base human definitions that science claims as the only truth.

It is true that my experiences are my own but what about healing systems all over the world that are unfettered by the 'wisdom' of developed science? There is so much more than conventional medicine. I believe in an open mind.

[Barry]

There are many things that scientists struggle to accept or even understand because they can't explain it in scientifically acceptable terms. One of my biggest beefs with medical science is its total failure to treat the body as one machine. They seem, for all their 'knowledge'  only able to consider alleviation of symptoms  without any thought about what the root cause might be or any attempt too often to even consider anything outside their particular specialisation.  

I guess like faith in God it doesn't fit in with current thinking. It's a shame. Homeopathy is just one of the complementary techniques I have and do use. The point is the word complementary, it fills in the gaps that the white coats don't even think about. There is no mystery just an open mind.

If you are putting faith in homeopathy on a similar level to faith in God, then you've lost me.

Don't you see that you are reinforcing those who would say that believers in God are deluded? If our faith is based in the same realm as the placebo effect of homeopathy, I'd rather abandon it altogether. It's quite serious in my mind.

Can I assume that all the deniers have used these and found them wanting? Without personal experience I really don't understand your views.

Personal experiences are not proof owing to the placebo effect and self delusion.

If you wish to rely on those, no one will deny you that comfort, with the rider that it may not be real.



Just a final point in this thread as I often say - follow the money and you might find the truth.  :dsh:

[T00ts]

Can I assume that all the deniers have used these and found them wanting? Without personal experience I really don't understand your views.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I see you use the term "complementary" and not alternative, so I don't see homeopathy fills any gaps — it's used alongside conventional medicine, and its only claim to efficacy seems to me is that it performs as well as the placebo effect or, perhaps, faith. I have found no accepted controlled, blind trials (eg, like those that have been undertaken with turmeric) that support any claims in support of homeopathy. Strangely — for a country I've always respected for its science and medicine — France includes homeopathy in its mainstream health service...

See it as a thin edge of an extremely dangerous wedge. Science brought us down from the trees. The Age of Enlightenment at the end of the 18th century changed the world forever, and life expectancy doubled. Do you want to walk back along that path? Fancy using a mangle to do your washing and a charm to charm the various gods that your crops will grow this year and you will not starve?



In my town these people have travelled further backwards along this road than most. Be warned.

[patman post]

There are many things that scientists struggle to accept or even understand because they can't explain it in scientifically acceptable terms. One of my biggest beefs with medical science is its total failure to treat the body as one machine. They seem, for all their 'knowledge'  only able to consider alleviation of symptoms  without any thought about what the root cause might be or any attempt too often to even consider anything outside their particular specialisation.  

I guess like faith in God it doesn't fit in with current thinking. It's a shame. Homeopathy is just one of the complementary techniques I have and do use. The point is the word complementary, it fills in the gaps that the white coats don't even think about. There is no mystery just an open mind.

I see you use the term "complementary" and not alternative, so I don't see homeopathy fills any gaps — it's used alongside conventional medicine, and its only claim to efficacy seems to me is that it performs as well as the placebo effect or, perhaps, faith. I have found no accepted controlled, blind trials (eg, like those that have been undertaken with turmeric) that support any claims in support of homeopathy. Strangely — for a country I've always respected for its science and medicine — France includes homeopathy in its mainstream health service...

[Baron von Lotsov]

There are many things that scientists struggle to accept or even understand because they can't explain it in scientifically acceptable terms. One of my biggest beefs with medical science is its total failure to treat the body as one machine. They seem, for all their 'knowledge'  only able to consider alleviation of symptoms  without any thought about what the root cause might be or any attempt too often to even consider anything outside their particular specialisation.  

I guess like faith in God it doesn't fit in with current thinking. It's a shame. Homeopathy is just one of the complementary techniques I have and do use. The point is the word complementary, it fills in the gaps that the white coats don't even think about. There is no mystery just an open mind.

They might do in this country, but try reading Wikipedia sometime on a medical matter and you would feel far more relaxed, since someone out there has figured the root cause in nearly everything, right down to the molecular interaction level.



Look here's a really big clue when dealing with perpetual professional liars in the pseudo-medicine profession. It's the same if you are a UFO watcher or any of this make-believe stuff. The one thing they always say is either professional scientists are stupid, like the world's top scientists are like children compared to the sophistication of the homeopath, or the other one is they know the truth but are trying to cover it up. A variation of the second usually extends to "because they are evil and greedy and just do it for the money", as if the homeopath were the paragon of virtue. In all cases you nearly always find that what is going on is psychological projection. The homeopath is not talking about the scientists, but projecting their own psyche onto them to explain the lie.



On the other hand, if it works, it can be demonstrated to work with repeatability in double blind trials by independent experimenters then it is science. So, "no work - no science".

[T00ts]

There are many things that scientists struggle to accept or even understand because they can't explain it in scientifically acceptable terms. One of my biggest beefs with medical science is its total failure to treat the body as one machine. They seem, for all their 'knowledge'  only able to consider alleviation of symptoms  without any thought about what the root cause might be or any attempt too often to even consider anything outside their particular specialisation.  

I guess like faith in God it doesn't fit in with current thinking. It's a shame. Homeopathy is just one of the complementary techniques I have and do use. The point is the word complementary, it fills in the gaps that the white coats don't even think about. There is no mystery just an open mind.

[Barry]

Something we agree on. Miracles do happen.



Homeopathy is quackery which exploits the vulnerable and scientifically illiterate

I agree entirely.

Just think what the homepathic remedy is for diabetes - sugar lumps? Really?  :roll:

[Ciaphas]

People who believe in homeopathy to a pathological extent, like psychopaths, are a tad disappointed of late. I like to do periodic checks on how our government is doing, and two things I approve of are, 1) no more NHS funding of pseudoscience, 2) qualifications in pseudoscience should not be accredited. This has been the case with homeopathy. In 2017 NHS stopped funding it, and in the last month or so the head of the NHS is demanding the largest pseudoscience outfit peddling homeopathy should become discredited, i.e. of no official recognition.



Well amidst the confusion and chaos of Blighty, I'm happy to report a result for you. Keep up the good word Simon Stevens!

Something we agree on. Miracles do happen.



Homeopathy is quackery which exploits the vulnerable and scientifically illiterate

[Baron von Lotsov]

Well, against my better judgement I looked it up.



To reveal in full what I found, would lay me open to revealing personal medical details of someone related to a forum member. So I won't



I will simply say the Merck Index refers to a rather old copy of  the pharmacists Bible 'the british pharmacopoeia' in which the documented medical evidence for its efficacy against a particularly nasty terminal disease is noted. So no quackery here. What is also noted is the "LD50" which is the ratio of the dose required to kill half of the disease to the dose required to kill half the patients.



For almost anything used today those numbers are millions to one down to thousands or hundreds to one for some chemotherapies. Let's just say the LD50 for arsenic I just saw makes it pretty bloody clear why the doc wanted EVERYONE present to agree. Jeez, talk about "roll d6, 1,2 or 3 you lose"



But if it were me on that bed, I'd take those odds given the 100% certainty of what happens if I don't. Normality isn't normal in such situations

Yes but homeopaths think the scientists are all full of lies and buy the placebo effect instead. Medicine is about statistics, but homeopaths don't use statistics because they are too complicated and technical. They go on recommendations from other dozy cows. If this arsenic works in certain situations then it is scientific. The scientists will know from previous experiment what the odds are. As Wikipedia says, homeopathy is unscientific. It's based on discredited theories which have long been disproved. It's unethical to charge people taxes to pay for the administration of placebos by conmen and conwomen (conpersons ).

[papasmurf]

For almost anything used today those numbers are millions to one down to thousands or hundreds to one for some chemotherapies. Let's just say the LD50 for arsenic I just saw makes it pretty bloody clear why the doc wanted EVERYONE present to agree. Jeez, talk about "roll d6, 1,2 or 3 you lose"

In the case I referred to she was close to death anyway, and a small chance using arsenic to stop that was better than the certainty she was about to die.