It’s time for Ireland to stand up to the EU

[GerryT]

Yes and no.

If... all those vaccines ordered turn out to be effective. (No guarentee).
And if they all are delivered on time.

So what the UK did was to compensate more for the potential of these programs to go wrong.
This cost extra money and saved extra lives.

We have something like 8 vaccinations ordered per person. You have about 3 or 4.
We have 15% of our population vaccinated. You have 4% of your population vaccinated.


So you will understand if we, the world and even your own people would prefer not to follow the procurement model you have provided.

THe EU is now up to 2.3b vaccines on order.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_2467

It's early days, the UK is going for headline numbers, giving the first dose and stretching the second dose. The EU is no doing that. It will come a time when the UK will have to go back and get those 10million people second dosed while the EU continues with it's double dose regime. Hopefully the UK system isn't a breeding ground for a vaccine resistant strain to develop as people are only 50% safe.

The UK approach hasn't saved more lives, it's cost more lives that most countries in the world.

The UK approach has been based on a gamble, keep it, it's not what I would want. So far it has worked out but will it continue to go that way ?

[Thomas]

Go back and read and you will see I agreed. The actual day of brexit was the end of Jan 2020, during transition the only change was the UK not having any commissioners or vote on any EU decision, but the UK all through 2020 were following EU rules and paying into the budget. I described it as sailing the ship in the harbour.

yer flapping about as ever gerry.

plastic paddy speaks with forked tongue.

Again you get it wrong the EU didn't trigger Art16, read and get informed:

Where did i say the eu did or didnt trigger article 16 ? quote please , or we will have to file this away as gerrys latest strawman.

Feck knows what the rest of your paragraph is to do with me.

I don't really care who is next in power, I'm interested in seeing how the UK handles brexit,

The two are intextricably linked from your point of view.

You as a remainer , are wasting your time bleating on this non irish froum about brexit , as unless starmer and the latest reincarnation of new labour get into power in 2024 , the uk wont be going back into the eu .

It's not often you get to see a country self harm

What self harm?

Im proud democracy was finally enacted despite everything that was thrown at brexiters , and the best of it was , it took the tories  , not your beloved labour party , to enact the will of the people.

[GerryT]

Int that strange how you twist things when it suits.?
Despite telling the forum , and on occassion me in particular , that the uk had left the eu a year ago , you are now claiming the opposite and saying the uk was still a member?
You are full of shit gerry. I told you for a year that the uk was in a half way house membership called the transition period , and you adamantly repeated the uk had left.
...and here lo and behold when the need arises , you back track and say the opposite.

Go back and read and you will see I agreed. The actual day of brexit was the end of Jan 2020, during transition the only change was the UK not having any commissioners or vote on any EU decision, but the UK all through 2020 were following EU rules and paying into the budget. I described it as sailing the ship in the harbour. The date of leaving was end Jan 2020. As you would say your full of cack. The point about the UK ordering vaccines outside the Eu scheme and approving them was done with the UK under EU rules and any EU country could have done that, or do you disagree with the substantive point that I was making ?

The uk isnt a country , its multi national state made up of differing countries , with differing  borders internally as it always has been.
Further , you were on these forums for years bleating northern ireland had to remain in the eu  , and respect given to the GFA , and now you mock the uk government for doing the very thing you wanted all along?
Get feckin out of here ya fraud.

Again you get it wrong the EU didn't trigger Art16, read and get informed:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/i-regret-that-article-16-was-mentioned-von-der-leyen-statement-in-full-1.4473479
I never said NI should be in the EU. I said the GFA and WA/NI protocol are legally binding agreements and the UK has to abide by them. I have also said the people of NI will decide their own future, when they want. And the people of NI seem to be saying that, The DUP are a dying party, due to their crazy approach to all things, it's not Sinn Fein picking up those seats. The Alliance party is growing in strength and they have no link to unionism or nationalism. Stop trying to use NI as a pawn to solve England's problem, it's been a problem since day one and remains a problem for Johnson.

....and covid has stolen the wind from your bleating anglo remainer sails.
We will see how it works out  , but nothing much is going to change this side of a GE , and as far as i can see your only hope starmer the pro european is a s far away from getting elected as any labour leader over the last decade .
Anyhow what do you care how it works out?
Anymore than any on here cares how michael martins premiership works out?

I don't really care who is next in power, I'm interested in seeing how the UK handles brexit, 39 days since brexit was born and counting. So far it's no advertisement for anyone to want to follow down that rabbit hole.
As for Covid, the UK is hardly an advertisement of how to handle a pandemic, pretty disastrous really. Did I hear Johnson suggest that people's second jab might be from a different manufacturer to the first jab, was that a serious comment or some poor joke. The UK roll out has been more based on gambling and not science but so far that gamble has paid off. You might like that approach but it's not for me. How many countries are now moving away from AZ ? alot, there's something going on there or this wouldn't be happening.

...but you arent in the uk apparently so you tell us , so what do you care about uk democracy and opposing viewpoints?
You arent part of uk democracy , its up to the people in the uk to sort out our democracy , not foreigners like you.
It takes some sad barsteward of an individual to go to all the trouble of kidding on he is something he isnt to punt forth some puerile argument on an obscure political forum does it not?
Havent you got a sock drawer or something to clean out if you are that bored?

It's not often you get to see a country self harm and fall apart, it's better than Netflix and sock drawers !

[Thomas]

Yes and no.

If... all those vaccines ordered turn out to be effective. (No guarentee).
And if they all are delivered on time.

So what the UK did was to compensate more for the potential of these programs to go wrong.
This cost extra money and saved extra lives.

We have something like 8 vaccinations ordered per person. You have about 3 or 4.
We have 15% of our population vaccinated. You have 4% of your population vaccinated.


So you will understand if we, the world and even your own people would prefer not to follow the procurement model you have provided.

Baffy.

The irish film industry is making a new film about dr. harold shipman starring robert de niro.

Its called the old dear hunter.

[Baff]

More than enough for all countries, the EU has an option to bring it to 1.66B,

Yes and no.

If... all those vaccines ordered turn out to be effective. (No guarentee).
And if they all are delivered on time.

So what the UK did was to compensate more for the potential of these programs to go wrong.
This cost extra money and saved extra lives.

We have something like 8 vaccinations ordered per person. You have about 3 or 4.
We have 15% of our population vaccinated. You have 4% of your population vaccinated.


So you will understand if we, the world and even your own people would prefer not to follow the procurement model you have provided.

[cromwell]

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20210205%2F005324949628abcddd7922e0a77c3f59.jpg&hash=12801be86205fdcab40c11fd6f07d086

[Thomas]

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20210205%2F005324949628abcddd7922e0a77c3f59.jpg&hash=12801be86205fdcab40c11fd6f07d086

[Thomas]

Well the UK did, it was still "tied" by Eu rules and regulations until January this yr, it was effectively a member.

Int that strange how you twist things when it suits.?

Despite telling the forum , and on occassion me in particular , that the uk had left the eu a year ago , you are now claiming the opposite and saying the uk was still a member?

You are full of shit gerry. I told you for a year that the uk was in a half way house membership called the transition period , and you adamantly repeated the uk had left.

...and here lo and behold when the need arises , you back track and say the opposite.

What other country would put a border in the middle of their country for a disaster plan.

The uk isnt a country , its multi national state made up of differing countries , with differing  borders internally as it always has been.

Further , you were on these forums for years bleating northern ireland had to remain in the eu  , and respect given to the GFA , and now you mock the uk government for doing the very thing you wanted all along?

Get feckin out of here ya fraud.

Brexit has only started, day 38. It's time to see how it works out, up to now was just talk.

....and covid has stolen the wind from your bleating anglo remainer sails.

We will see how it works out  , but nothing much is going to change this side of a GE , and as far as i can see your only hope starmer the pro european is a s far away from getting elected as any labour leader over the last decade .

Anyhow what do you care how it works out?

Anymore than any on here cares how michael martins premiership works out?

But thankfully the UK is still a democracy and opposing viewpoints are allowed.

...but you arent in the uk apparently so you tell us , so what do you care about uk democracy and opposing viewpoints?

You arent part of uk democracy , its up to the people in the uk to sort out our democracy , not foreigners like you.

It takes some sad barsteward of an individual to go to all the trouble of kidding on he is something he isnt to punt forth some puerile argument on an obscure political forum does it not?

Havent you got a sock drawer or something to clean out if you are that bored?

[GerryT]

Any eu country could have? Yeah and if a frog had wings,they did nowt paralysed by eu bureaucracy and don't be copying the moronic midget macron slagging off the az vaccine to cover his own backside and sliding approval ratings.

Well the UK did, it was still "tied" by Eu rules and regulations until January this yr, it was effectively a member. The purchase of AZ vaccines was what, last June/Juy time ?
AZ haven't covered themselves in glory. It's trials didn't include many if any over 65's such that many countries (including Ireland) are not giving the AZ vaccine to the elderly. It's trials also included one manufacturing batch that mistakenly had a 50% dose per vile. Some had a half dose second shot others had a full second shot and the second shot was given at different intervals. Sounds like one blunder after another, it's share holders in USA agree as they push forward with a law suit for senior executives misrepresented facts regarding AstraZeneca's clinical trials and concealed problems that had arisen in the trials.

You live in your fantasy we are the eu and the eu is us land but all is not well or have you missed the riots in Holland and the unrest in France.

No fantasy Cromwell, I've been told on here the EU will shaft IRL any day soon, hasn't happened and it won't happen. Unlike NI which has been rightly screwed by Johnson and his merry band of idiots. What other country would put a border in the middle of their country for a disaster plan. Do you honestly think any country would want to repeat what the UK did ? not a chance.

As far as attacking the poster you won't remember telling me I needed to be more apologetic for what the English did or how I had the cheek to have the username Cromwell and how you could tell me this or that.

I try not attack the poster, as my posts would demonstrate, if I have I apologise as that's not what forums like this are here for.

And I will repeat you are a joke Gerry because we've done brexit yet here you are telling us it's a mess of our own making but oh dear how none of the eu wants us back,you don't get it do you?

Brexit has only started, day 38. It's time to see how it works out, up to now was just talk.

We don't care what you think of brexit and are not interested in rejoining.

Your not interested in rejoining and your not interested in what I say. But thankfully the UK is still a democracy and opposing viewpoints are allowed.

So what are the brexit upsides at this point ?

[Borchester]

More than anything else, the UK is run by its elected representatives. Currently the chap in charge is called Boris Johnson and he knew that if he did not do something about the vaccine shortage he would have had his political balls cut off and be dumped in the home of all British has beens, the House of Lords.

So now the UK has lots of vaccine and the country is shooting up fit to bring a twinkle to the eyes of any South American  drug cartel.

Unfortunately for the EU, the European Commission is its House of Lords. Ursula Leyen wasn't going anywhere in the Christian Democrat Party so was given the Presidency of the EU Commission as a consolation prize. Once there she knew that she was unsackable, so could happily spend her time looking for a vaccine of the right colour and one that did not make her bum look too big. As a result, EU progress vaccine wise, has not been as good as it might have been.

[cromwell]

More than enough for all countries, the EU has an option to bring it to 1.66B, in other words if one supplier fails then another will get more ordered through the option scheme. AZ were first to market (bar Russia) and the UK using emergency powers approved it for distribution. So yes it worked out for the UK but giving one shot was a political decision, not a science decision. Where other countries held back 50% of their vaccine to get the two shots in the recommended (by clinical trials not a finger in the air job) Johnson decided to push it to 12 weeks, based on what ?  Nothing thats what, another gamble that we will wait and see if it pays off. That's def not the Govt or decision making I would want to be part of.
This could all have been done being part of the EU, it has nothing to do with brexit, so desperate is the UK govt to draw attention away from what's actually happening due to brexit they are prepared to gamble with peoples lives.
The need to get a vaccine rolled out is driven by how each country has been dealing with covid so far. The UK being one of the worst on the planet has meant it has a much greater need to push forward with vaccines when compared to other countries.

I was listening to abit of Marr this morning to hear a report that UK exports have been fine as disruption hasn't been that bad. He did fail to mention that UK exports to the EU are down over 65% on last yr and imports have zero checks/paperwork until July. That must be a smugglers paradise.

That's what you miss Gerry the eu was too slow,even Ursula admits that and she's under fire againhttps://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/world/europe/eu-vaccine-von-der-leyen.html

[GerryT]

Yes. I think that much has become quite clear.
Comparatively speaking.

The EU has signed contracts for a billion doses of vaccine?
Doesn't compare well with 400 million that the UK has signed contracts for.

More than enough for all countries, the EU has an option to bring it to 1.66B, in other words if one supplier fails then another will get more ordered through the option scheme. AZ were first to market (bar Russia) and the UK using emergency powers approved it for distribution. So yes it worked out for the UK but giving one shot was a political decision, not a science decision. Where other countries held back 50% of their vaccine to get the two shots in the recommended (by clinical trials not a finger in the air job) Johnson decided to push it to 12 weeks, based on what ?  Nothing thats what, another gamble that we will wait and see if it pays off. That's def not the Govt or decision making I would want to be part of.
This could all have been done being part of the EU, it has nothing to do with brexit, so desperate is the UK govt to draw attention away from what's actually happening due to brexit they are prepared to gamble with peoples lives.
The need to get a vaccine rolled out is driven by how each country has been dealing with covid so far. The UK being one of the worst on the planet has meant it has a much greater need to push forward with vaccines when compared to other countries.

I was listening to abit of Marr this morning to hear a report that UK exports have been fine as disruption hasn't been that bad. He did fail to mention that UK exports to the EU are down over 65% on last yr and imports have zero checks/paperwork until July. That must be a smugglers paradise.

[Baff]

You made out that the UK backed many horses and the EU did little or nothing.

Yes. I think that much has become quite clear.
Comparatively speaking.

The EU has signed contracts for a billion doses of vaccine?
Doesn't compare well with 400 million that the UK has signed contracts for.

[cromwell]

It shows how little you know. Any EU country could have ordered vaccines outside the EU purchase scheme, any EU country could have used emergency approval of vaccines and not awaited for a more rigorous EMA testing process, any EU country could have given AZ an indemnity against any claims with their vaccine, any EU country could have-but the UK did all of these. Most EU countries decided to follow EMA medical advise and stay within the EU purchase scheme, but they didn't have to. Getting vaccines early has proven to be a smart move by the UK, it was a gamble that paid off. But it was most def not a brexit win as any EU country could have done the same and the UK did this when it was a EU member, it all happened before Christmas.

You don't seem to know what happened and it's yourself that has a chip, just deal with the facts and stop attacking the poster, what in the above is incorrect ?  as far as I'm concerned they are the facts.

Any eu country could have? Yeah and if a frog had wings,they did nowt paralysed by eu bureaucracy and don't be copying the moronic midget macron slagging off the az vaccine to cover his own backside and sliding approval ratings.

You live in your fantasy we are the eu and the eu is us land but all is not well or have you missed the riots in Holland and the unrest in France.

As far as attacking the poster you won't remember telling me I needed to be more apologetic for what the English did or how I had the cheek to have the username Cromwell and how you could tell me this or that.

And I will repeat you are a joke Gerry because we've done brexit yet here you are telling us it's a mess of our own making but oh dear how none of the eu wants us back,you don't get it do you?
We don't care what you think of brexit and are not interested in rejoining.

[GerryT]

They made the same investment arrangement in Scotland and also another Belgian development.
Also Pfizer. And those are just the ones that I know of. I fully expect there will have been more.

Research is hit or miss. You use a scattergun approach to investment as you cannot tell which ones will actually work in advance.
So you back a lot of programs. Which is what the UK did.

You made out that the UK backed many horses and the EU did little or nothing. Thats far from the truth. First the EU ordered 300m doses of the vaccine last August from AZ, that was after the UK had placed its order. But there were two clauses in the contract that are important:
clause 13.1c   "[Astrazeneca] it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent in any material respect with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement"
Secondly the contract states that the vaccine will be delivered from AZ facilities in the EU and UK, And from other sites by approval by the EU if AZ wanted to accelerate the delivery.
What we see is AZ lying by saying that the EU vaccine is to only come from the belgium site and that the UK has a lock on UK manufactured vaccine. As the Eu contract is after the UK one with AZ, the clause 13.1(c) that AZ signed would put great weight on UK manufactured vaccine being shipped to the EU.

Apart from this the EU have signed contracts for over 1 billion doses:
Astra Zeneca 300m doses on 27th Aug with an option for another 100m.
Janssen 200m doses on 8th Oct with an option for another 200m.
Pfizer 200m doses on 11th Nov with an option for another 100m.
CureVac 225m doses on 17th Nov with an option for another 180m.
Moderna 80m doses on 25th Nov with an option for another 80m.

We may have been behind the UK in starting the roll out but that was our choice. But now the failure of AZ to meet it's contractual obligations is causing an issue. We are in no way dependant on AZ and other companies purchased vaccines will soon start to be delivered.