The New Cold War with China

[grumzed]

I thought most corporate finance in the US went to the Republican Party rather than the Democrats and this seems to be supported by the evidence from 2007 to 2017:-

https://howmuch.net/articles/the-30-biggest-political-donors-on-the-fortune-500

In reply to B4:
This may have changed during Trump's reign but I doubt that many would have switched from this stance. Notable exceptions are some high tech companies (Microsoft, Apple etc.) who have generally always supported the Democrats. It may well be the "record high" funding to the Democrats is a backlash against Trump and an attempt to pursuade the Republicans to get a responsible leader.

Russia supported Trump so as to disrupt stability inside the USA and they largely succeeded. They just wanted a weaker America and they largely succeeded in that the US is now highly polarised. I do not see any "authoritarian control" emerging in the US although that would have been an aim of the Russian hierarchy as a road to destroying any concept of democracy; democracy being a concept that is of most danger to the politics within Russia right now.

[Sampanviking]

There are Human Rights abuses being perpetuated against the Uighur minority in Xinjiang that effectively amounts to Genocide. This is the message we are being told by our Media and Political Class.

We are being told, that the Chinese State has turned the Province of Xinjiang into a virtual open prison, that over a Million Uighur have been incarcerated in camps, that their language, culture and of course, Islamic Faith is being obliterated and that crimes against women such as Forced Sterilisation and Gang Rape have been institutionalised.

These are very serious accusations; with Genocide being one of the most serious that one state can level at another.

Can I categorically prove to you all that none of this taking place? Well, no I can't. I have never been to Xinjiang and have no first hand experience of the province. All I have is an opinion based on examination of the evidence put forward both supporting and contradicting the accusations.
My opinion is that the accusations are nonsense, that the evidence put forward by those making the accusations is flimsy if not outright farcical and the weight of the Contradictory Circumstantial evidence is very, very strong.

It is this Circumstantial Evidence that I want to share with you, first and foremost.

To begin with, I can deal with the idea of Xinjiang being a closed off open Prison. Very plainly, this is not the case and travellers have been able to visit the province internally, by car, plan or train without let or hindrance. Only it seems does the BBC have trouble in getting there. There are numerous recent travelogues from the Province and the Uighur areas.

Before going further though, I think it is best to give a quick summary of the Province itself. Xinjiang is a very large area of Western China with massive external borders on its Northern, Western and Southern boundaries. It is not a Uighur Province, but simply the Province in which the Uighur areas are situated. There are some forty minority groups in the Province of which the Uighurs are the largest, plus of course a very large Han Chinese population many of which have been in the Region for many, many centuries. The populations of Xinjiang are a patch work of different groups all of which are centered around old Silk Road Cities, which is the reason most of them are there in the first place. This means that there is no consolidated Uighur territory, just a number of areas around some large cities, mostly situated on the Western borders of the Province.

The Uighurs themselves are a Turkic Muslim people, as indeed are many of the populations in the states on the other side of China's Western border, in Kajikistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan etc plus some in Afghanistan as well.  Sadly, as was the case with the other Central Asian republics, segments of the Uighur population became caught up with Islamic Fundamentalism, much being stoked as policy by US Intelligence operating out of Afghanistan. The main Uighur militant group; the ETIM, are an Internationally designated Terrorist Group.
This resulted in a number of very deadly IS style attacks in Xinjiang that left very many dead and injured. China found itself fighting its very own War on Terror and mounted its own style of counter terrorism operation.

It is from this operation that the accusations of Genocide have arisen.

It is a serious accusation to make and it immediately creates the impression of a major military or Paramilitary Police action against a population, the destruction of urban areas, with the mass killing, displacement or incarceration of the target population, in tandem with bans on language, religion and the destruction of houses of worship etc etc. The most vivid example of this has been the attack by the Burmese Government (at that time a functioning Democracy) against the Rohinga minority. This attack killed many and forced hundreds of thousands if not over a million Rohinga over the Burmese border into Bangladesh in a very visible and obvious human calamity.
So, the first strong piece of Circumstantial Evidence is the lack of Refugees and Regional reaction. The Xinjiang border is massive and rugged. Even the mighty PLA would be unable to do more than partially plug it and vast areas would remain wholly porous. If a large population of some ten million felt under attack, vast numbers would manage to escape to neighbouring states, many of whom are populated by their ethnic cousins and co-religionists. There would be large refugee camps, there would be massive demonstrations, there would of course also be satellite imagery showing the burnt and bulldozed Uighur towns and villages. So where are they?
The answer is that there is nothing. Even if it was simply a Police action detaining large numbers of people, this would be enough to trigger a mass exodus and even if some were intercepted many tens of thousands or more would still get through. The absence of such is very telling.

Likewise many visitors to the region have produced footage from towns and cities that shows life going on as normal. No military vehicles parked on every corner, just normal police officers in normal numbers, many of which are Uighur themselves. There are no shortage of Uighurs on the streets. There is no shortage of the Uighur language being spoken. There is no shortage of the Uighur written language on display everywhere and there are no shortage of operating Mosques, all in good repair.
In short, there is nothing that shows a culture under attack or repression.

So, we know that China has undertaken a major Counter Terrorism operation in Uighur areas, but very clearly this is not a military strike using bombs and missiles to destroy suspect targets (and all that surrounds them as Collateral Damage) as does the US and its allies in its version of the War on Terror. In fact I would say that more Uighur militants have been killed by the US in Afghanistan and Eastern Syria (many were fighting with IS) than have been killed by Chinese forces in Xinjiang.

Instead this has been a far more subtle and co-ordinated program of activities, which have included the detaining of terrorist suspects for de-radicalisation, mixed with accelerated social and economic development in what has been an economic backwater, for reasons that should be pretty obvious, but which are naturally changing fast as a result of the Belt and Road initiative which is transforming the focus of the Chinese state from East Coast to Western Frontier.

The other side of the equation is the credibility of the sources of the accusations. Well, the accusations originate from a hand full of groups, all of which seem to be based in the US and seem to be funded directly or indirectly by the US Governement (NED etc). These accusations are then picked up and amplified by so called Think Tanks that are also largely funded by US and other Western Governments, plus major US Arms Manufacturers. These amplified accusations are then picked up by the MSM and trumpted as truth, with no attempt to verify or even critically examine.

So, my summary is this. As the Colonel in the earlier video makes clear, the US (the nation that will not tolerate a peer competitor) has wanted to use Uighur militants to destabilise the PRC or otherwise force China into making extreme and draconian measures, in order to justify the west's campaign of vilification. To their chagrin however, China has shot the US fox by operating a very effective Counter Terrorism operation which has isolated an unknown number of true extremists and successfully modernised and integrated the Uighur majority into mainstream Chinese society.

What I can say from what I have heard and seen, is that the pattern of development in Uighur areas is indistinguishable, from that in the rest of China, bar a much higher level of security in Schools and Factories, to prevent external attack, which would cause a loss of confidence in the moderate Uighurs and reverse the gains the Chinese Government has made. Many schools in China are residential, especially for older teenagers and many factories have dormitories for workers as well. I am sure it is these that are being misrepresented somehow as "Camps".
Incidentally, the one million incarcerated figure appears to be a total invention. The Uighur source to whom it is attributed says he quoted it from the media, while the media say they are quoting him.

Not for the first time, it seems as though US narrative and strategy are put together at the same time and that the narrative seems impossible to alter no matter how awry the strategy may go and I suspect that this is one such occasion. The US response now appears to be to make ever more shrill and ridiculous accusations and using those as justification to wreck the social and economic progress in Xinjiang, in the hope it will re-impoverish and  re-radicalise Uighurs again and make them fit for US purpose. Hence the sanctions and bans on Cotton etc etc.
One last observation. There has been a major health drive, especially towards Uighur women. Many of these of older years, will have suffered the consequences of being a woman in a traditional Islamic family. As a result many will have had serious Gynaecological issues, which will have been neglected for years if not decades. For many, Hysterectomy will have been the only medical remedy and I have no doubt that it is this which is being misrepresented as mass sterilisation and presented as if it was a policy targeting young women and girls.
The facts are that the Uighur population is greater now than at any other time and that as a minority in China, were always exempt from the one child policy.

I do not believe there is any form of Genocide being carried out against the Uighurs and that there is plenty of circumstantial evidence and credible witnesses to support that view, even if they are being actively discredited and un-platformed by our media.

[B-4]

I notice the US is still blaming Russia for Trump's support, and how Russia was trying to rig the US elections.  Talk about deflection! Team Biden depended on corporate controlled censorship, corporate funding (record high), lockdown and riots, and massive smear campaigns that would make McCarthy blush.

I guess the USA is now so screwed up that it has to delude itself into believing everything that doesn't support the Democrats is Russian.

The USA seems to be as divided as the Soviet Union, where the regime had to take total authoritarian control over everything to force the people to submit.

You are free to challenge this 'opinion'.

[Sampanviking]

I have been meaning to get my teeth into the Xinjiang issue for some time and to do so from the perspective of Governance. More precisely in respect of the effectiveness of both Western and Chinese response of Governance with regard to the three major issues of the 21st Century so far:

The Financial Crisis
The War on Terror
The Coronavirus Pandemic

Xinjiang is therefore the War on Terror.

My time is limited at this precise moment, so I will start off with just a couple of videos.
One is of a former US military Staff Officer talking openly about the US mission in Afghanistan and how that includes policy towards the Uighurs, plus a video from a young Chinese Canadian that I follow, who visited Xinjiang last year and here where he talks to Uighur Police officer on the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoRjedCejjs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N385vKhXYQ

I plan to come back to start on the meat of this issue a little later, hopefully today.

[cromwell]

Typically, media reporters in the UK are free to write what they like as long as it isn't slanderous and passes editorial scrutiny. There is no mechanism for government interference except in specific times of emergency (like a war for example) or if the paper collides with the official secrets act. Newspapers have their own bias of course as the views expressed both by selection of the story and will usually follow the political line supported by the paper's typical readership. Nonetheless people have a choice of what paper to buy and read from the Russian supported Morning Star or the more Trotskyist Socialist Worker through to the Daily Telegraph or Times and all in between. There are probably fairly ultra-right papers too but I am unaware of them. Such a range of views from any media is simply not available in China and any criticism of goverment policy is not permitted - even vocalising any criticism privately is risky (though less than it was 20+ years ago). 

Sampan is right that the average person in PRC is often more aware of "news" but such news is heavily controlled. Unlike the UK, for example, where criticism of whatever government is in power can always be found. The BBC comes under a lot of stick in this country because it is always upsetting half the people. In my view this is better than accepting and re-transmitting propaganda. I don't see the BBC treating the Tories any better or worse than they did Jeremy Corbyn. And Starmer has not made any news worth talking about. Sometimes the BBC (and other news broadcasters) are OTT in some interviews but that's better than not being challenging at all.

[highlight]On the other hand the west is seeing the rise of websites which can promote complete b*llocks and it seems lots of people will believe it! How that is to be managed is going to be a problem.[/highlight]

And therein is the real problem and the rise of nutters around Trumps fall and so many in our own country.

[grumzed]

Typically, media reporters in the UK are free to write what they like as long as it isn't slanderous and passes editorial scrutiny. There is no mechanism for government interference except in specific times of emergency (like a war for example) or if the paper collides with the official secrets act. Newspapers have their own bias of course as the views expressed both by selection of the story and will usually follow the political line supported by the paper's typical readership. Nonetheless people have a choice of what paper to buy and read from the Russian supported Morning Star or the more Trotskyist Socialist Worker through to the Daily Telegraph or Times and all in between. There are probably fairly ultra-right papers too but I am unaware of them. Such a range of views from any media is simply not available in China and any criticism of goverment policy is not permitted - even vocalising any criticism privately is risky (though less than it was 20+ years ago). 

Sampan is right that the average person in PRC is often more aware of "news" but such news is heavily controlled. Unlike the UK, for example, where criticism of whatever government is in power can always be found. The BBC comes under a lot of stick in this country because it is always upsetting half the people. In my view this is better than accepting and re-transmitting propaganda. I don't see the BBC treating the Tories any better or worse than they did Jeremy Corbyn. And Starmer has not made any news worth talking about. Sometimes the BBC (and other news broadcasters) are OTT in some interviews but that's better than not being challenging at all.

On the other hand the west is seeing the rise of websites which can promote complete b*llocks and it seems lots of people will believe it! How that is to be managed is going to be a problem.

[Sheepy]

It is a
You are sadly very out of date, your average punter in PRC these days, probably has a better idea of what goes on in the world today than we do. It is after all, the most connected nation on earth. The Government may block news organisations,but it does not block news. I mean why should they shield the West from embarrassment by trying to prevent its citizens seeing the ineptitude and incompetence of the Wests handling of recent tests of Governance.

Well, if you say so, but it seems the Chinese government agree with me.

[Sampanviking]

well as though the average Chinese person would have a clue what was going on anyway, although that is the fault of the Chinese government as they still let Chinese New Year go ahead.

It is a
You are sadly very out of date, your average punter in PRC these days, probably has a better idea of what goes on in the world today than we do. It is after all, the most connected nation on earth. The Government may block news organisations,but it does not block news. I mean why should they shield the West from embarrassment by trying to prevent its citizens seeing the ineptitude and incompetence of the Wests handling of recent tests of Governance.

[Thomas]

well as though the average Chinese person would have a clue what was going on anyway, although that is the fault of the Chinese government as they still let Chinese New Year go ahead.

Well i dont know sheep , but over on the brexit thread , baffy just told me five out of four people have a problem with fractions..

[Sheepy]

Reading a few pieces of how Chinese communities around the world have been taking flak for covid,sadly stupidity and ignorance still exist everywhere and despite all advances still flourish.

well as though the average Chinese person would have a clue what was going on anyway, although that is the fault of the Chinese government as they still let Chinese New Year go ahead.

[cromwell]

Reading a few pieces of how Chinese communities around the world have been taking flak for covid,sadly stupidity and ignorance still exist everywhere and despite all advances still flourish.

[Sheepy]

Ah the value of hindsight, funny thing is nobody gave a hoot about China eating your lunch when the Corporations were sending them all your jobs for profit. Which in all honesty, I doubt the Chinese could actually believe their luck? Now we are all bothered because they had an eye on the American empire all along. 

[Thomas]

Probably retaliation for us closing down their Chinese TV news station over here, due to lack of freedom of editorial content.
Which, as SPV will say, is patently unfair as the BBC itself is just a state funded and state propaganda machine run from Downing St.

As time goes on, I see the CCP becoming more powerful, but I'm brainwashed by the propaganda, as I'm not watching the "good life in Wuhan" videos posted on here.

In fact I wonder if the CCP are worried about a few believers in Christ:
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/why.does.china.feel.so.threatened.by.christians/136283.htm
There's only about 100 million of them. Far more than the UK!

Anyway, I do like SPV, although I find his strong allegiance to China quite puzzling, anyone would think he had chosen to live there.

I think sampans views are refreshing , and they make a change from patman post runnig around accusing everyone of being russian/chinese bots attempting to overthrow western democracy.

[Barry]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56030340


Think there are a few people who would like to ban the british brainwashing corporation , never mind the chinese.

Probably retaliation for us closing down their Chinese TV news station over here, due to lack of freedom of editorial content.
Which, as SPV will say, is patently unfair as the BBC itself is just a state funded and state propaganda machine run from Downing St.

As time goes on, I see the CCP becoming more powerful, but I'm brainwashed by the propaganda, as I'm not watching the "good life in Wuhan" videos posted on here.

In fact I wonder if the CCP are worried about a few believers in Christ:
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/why.does.china.feel.so.threatened.by.christians/136283.htm
There's only about 100 million of them. Far more than the UK!

Anyway, I do like SPV, although I find his strong allegiance to China quite puzzling, anyone would think he had chosen to live there.

[Thomas]

China bans BBC World News from broadcasting

China has banned BBC World News from broadcasting in the country, its television and radio regulator announced on Thursday.

China has criticised the BBC for its reporting on coronavirus and the persecution of ethnic minority Uighurs.

The BBC said it was "disappointed" by the decision.

It follows British media regulator Ofcom revoking state broadcaster China Global Television Network's (CGTN) licence to broadcast in the UK.

Ofcom's decision earlier this month came after it found that CGTN's licence was wrongfully held by Star China Media Ltd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56030340


Think there are a few people who would like to ban the british brainwashing corporation , never mind the chinese.