labour whining about coal mine and how they are seen as a result of this

[Thomas]

Sadly it is not full of people exactly like me. It has too many careerist aspirational middle class Blairites who look down on the working classes. If you think that description fits me too then you haven't got a clue and are simply projecting your own hatred for the party onto me.

I spend more time in the party arguing with such types than I ever spend here arguing with the likes of you. To say I am exactly like them is risible. You clearly don't understand me at all, but nothing new there.

You keep saying this as though labour are two different parties , and if we vote for your labour , we wont get the "other " labour.

Its false  , disingenuous and completely idiotic.

These aspirational middle class blairites run your party , and have done for the last 30 years more or less , and the few years they werent in charge , they went all out to destroy corbyn.( and the aspirational middle class balirites still dictated corbyns 2019 manifesto for him , so what are you talking about?)

This is what labour are....the whole point people keep saying to you is they are the party predominantly of the starmers and millibands , middle class champagne socialists from in and around the south east of england , totally detached from the views of the ordianry working class in england never mind elsehwere.

Whatever your personal views , and you are being mocked on here at times for your cowardice and blind faith in not calling out the likes of starmer and his blairite cronies , no one on this forum nor the public at large are fooled by the "them and us" mantra of the differeing factions in labour.

You are one party , and you get one with the other , and if they get voted into power god feckin forbid , then the aspirational middle class champagne socialists will behave how they behaved 1997 - 2010. No different.

Feck labour.

[srb7677]

As far as I see I've been courteous to you in the face of being told you are talking torrents of shit,still I suppose one finds it so tiresome when confronted with it.

My language can be a bit blunt but it's really nothing personal.

The fact that you can't get over the fact that I regard some Sun reader types as gammons is clearly an issue though because you are forever brining it up unbidden. It is as if you take it personally.

Newsflash, when I think of a typical gammon I do not have you in mind. You are far too intelligent to be so described. It tends to be the intellectually challenged working class Tory types that I am insulting, the sort of people who would never vote Labour in a million years unless told to do so by the Sun

[srb7677]

its become a party full of people exactly like you

Sadly it is not full of people exactly like me. It has too many careerist aspirational middle class Blairites who look down on the working classes. If you think that description fits me too then you haven't got a clue and are simply projecting your own hatred for the party onto me.

I spend more time in the party arguing with such types than I ever spend here arguing with the likes of you. To say I am exactly like them is risible. You clearly don't understand me at all, but nothing new there.

[cromwell]

There is obvious confusion here. As a member of the Labour party I might speak of "we" and "us" from time to time. I do not dispute or refute my membership for as long as I am a member. None  of which alters the fact that I am here to represent my own views. When I talk of "we" and "us" it will generally be in areas or over statements in which I and the party are in broad accord.

I don't know why you insist upon extending your obvious loathing of Labour onto my political person when I am just another forum member speaking an opinion. Streetwalker was once a member of UKIP but I have never transferred my disdain for a lot of UKIP onto him personally. I fail to see why you are so incapable of transferring the same courtesy onto me. It is most tiresome.

As far as I see I've been courteous to you in the face of being told you are talking torrents of shit,still I suppose one finds it so tiresome when confronted with it.

[Borchester]

Jesus Christ, I can't even quote anybody. Why this endless fucking around with the board? Nice idea, kind thought, but if you can't fix something leave it alone.

As to Steve's comments, he should take Tommy's as a compliment. The Labour party appears to be due a hiding in Scotland, but not as badly expected.

[srb7677]

See this is where you aren't being clear first you say thisSo again you repeat that you are here expressing your own personal views and are a target as being perceived as a labour representative.
Then you go on and say thisAnd so are now claiming you are representing labour.

There is obvious confusion here. As a member of the Labour party I might speak of "we" and "us" from time to time. I do not dispute or refute my membership for as long as I am a member. None  of which alters the fact that I am here to represent my own views. When I talk of "we" and "us" it will generally be in areas or over statements in which I and the party are in broad accord.

I don't know why you insist upon extending your obvious loathing of Labour onto my political person when I am just another forum member speaking an opinion. Streetwalker was once a member of UKIP but I have never transferred my disdain for a lot of UKIP onto him personally. I fail to see why you are so incapable of transferring the same courtesy onto me. It is most tiresome.

[cromwell]

Mod notice
Was going to split this but changed thread title to reflect where the thread developed.

[cromwell]

That is something Thomas rarely does in my experience. He responds a lot but rarely in a very restrained way where I am concerned. Usually it is full of dishonest accusations about me personally, false rememberings, and wilful misinterpretations usually persisted with even after I have corrected him. For that reason he is on my ignore list and I intend to make no exceptions. I prefer it that way and it's my call. If you'd quoted his post I might have seen it.

As for the rest, there is undeniable hostility to me  here because I am seen as a representative of Labour, and most of the usual suspects - yourself included - are so viscerally opposed to Labour that you cannot help but hate it, your minds poisoned by it's stances over Brexit which you seem incapable of moving on from. So hate-filled is your mindset that even when the party seeks to help the struggling working classes, your ingrained disdain and hate will not allow you to give any credit where it is due. You just hate them for that as well. Labour wanting to help people is Labour being patronising and talking down to people, blah, blah, blah. Would you actually prefer it if we didn't want to help anyone more like the Tories?

Jesus wept, be honest enough to admit that no matter what Labour does you will hate it anyway because your mind has been poisoned.

When I spoke of a mythical Brexit by the way I was speaking about what was promised. Not what was delivered. The two are very different due to lies colliding with reality.

You for one are utterly obsessed with the Brexit issue. It colours all else and in that sense has poisoned your mind.

See this is where you aren't being clear first you say this

As for the rest, there is undeniable hostility to me  here because I am seen as a representative of Labour, and most of the usual suspects - yourself included - are so viscerally opposed to Labour that you cannot help but hate it, your minds poisoned by it's stances over Brexit which you seem incapable of moving on from

So again you repeat that you are here expressing your own personal views and are a target as being perceived as a labour representative.
Then you go on and say this

Labour wanting to help people is Labour being patronising and talking down to people, blah, blah, blah. Would you actually prefer it if we didn't want to help anyone more like the Tories?

And so are now claiming you are representing labour.
BTW people aren't hostile to you as a person.

[srb7677]

Are you in favour of opening the coal mine, or no, srb7677?

I am in favour of opening it, if the alternative is that we are only going to import the damned stuff anyway. But we need to be investing in clean coal technology, and until then reducing whatever reliance we may have upon coal.

That is a personal opinion. Whatever the Labour party might think.

[Barry]

Are you in favour of opening the coal mine, or no, srb7677?

[srb7677]

Today Thomas has replied in a very restrained way I believe....

That is something Thomas rarely does in my experience. He responds a lot but rarely in a very restrained way where I am concerned. Usually it is full of dishonest accusations about me personally, false rememberings, and wilful misinterpretations usually persisted with even after I have corrected him. For that reason he is on my ignore list and I intend to make no exceptions. I prefer it that way and it's my call. If you'd quoted his post I might have seen it.

As for the rest, there is undeniable hostility to me  here because I am seen as a representative of Labour, and most of the usual suspects - yourself included - are so viscerally opposed to Labour that you cannot help but hate it, your minds poisoned by it's stances over Brexit which you seem incapable of moving on from. So hate-filled is your mindset that even when the party seeks to help the struggling working classes, your ingrained disdain and hate will not allow you to give any credit where it is due. You just hate them for that as well. Labour wanting to help people is Labour being patronising and talking down to people, blah, blah, blah. Would you actually prefer it if we didn't want to help anyone more like the Tories?

Jesus wept, be honest enough to admit that no matter what Labour does you will hate it anyway because your mind has been poisoned.

When I spoke of a mythical Brexit by the way I was speaking about what was promised. Not what was delivered. The two are very different due to lies colliding with reality.

You for one are utterly obsessed with the Brexit issue. It colours all else and in that sense has poisoned your mind.

[cromwell]

Well that question is built upon pejorative assumptions, ie that all ex-Labour voters in my view are racists, thickos and gammons. Some might be at least one of those things but I do not think it true of most. The sort of people who are the typical gammons and racists are your Sun reader types, working class Tories for the most part. Labour never had their vote in the first place in most cases, except perhaps when Murdoch told them to vote for Blair.

Long term Labour voters deserted because the middle class triumphalist Blairites took them for granted and treated them with disdain. Some of them adopted an intense desire to give the Establishment a good kicking and seized upon Brexit as the opportunity. That Labour failed to understand this and misunderstood them cemented their contempt for a middle class party. When Corbyn came along with policies to address their concerns at last, those policies were popular. But Corbyn himself was not amongst older people at least, demonised as he was in the media. Nevertheless, by addressing working class concerns at last Labour polled more votes in 2017 than almost ever before. Because of people buying into the myth  of Brexit though the Tories polled even more and were still the largest party in spite of losing their majority.

I await the torrents of shit in response to this. It won't be long in coming.

Well your last line says it all Steve,so people disagree with you and it's torrents of shit,an earlier observation of yours the forum is a rabid snake pit.......I tried last night to exchange thoughts with you in a reasonable manner as did the Dawg.
Today Thomas has replied in a very restrained way I believe yet you have this vision of torrents of shit a rabid snake pit none of which is evident.

I would remind you that brexit is no myth it is a reality,one which many in the Labour Party tried to overturn by fair means or foul.....usually foul.
It may not be the result you wanted but it was a fair vote,despite your protestations that you despise Bliar, Thornberry and their ilk you share their disdain and derision of those who voted in a way you and they disapproved of and did so by maligning them as stupid,racists and more.

These were labours bedrock but as in Scotland have seen through the years of being taken for granted and ignored,as it stands labour is a busted flush and if they are ever to make a comeback they'll need to address these issues and with some humility.
Can't say I always agreed with Caroline Flint though she campaigned for remain but crucially accepted the result of the referendum unlike Thornberry and people like you who acted in the manner described above.

You can't escape that you presented yourself as the voice of labour here yet when challenged say no I'm expressing my own ideals,I have no doubt many here will share some of your ideals but not your love of labour.

You're as welcome as anyone but describing alternative views as torrents of shit and the forum a rabid snake pit will endear you to no one.......you carry on carrying the labour flag if you wish but don't expect an easy ride as is reflected not just here but the wider world outside.

[Thomas]

Well that question is built upon pejorative assumptions, ie that all ex-Labour voters in my view are racists, thickos and gammons. Some might be at least

Well thats a complete volte face for a start.

You famously claimed on this forums predesscessor that the vast majority of people in the uk were "racist"  , which would include the vast majority of  ex labour voters as well.

You have also famously claimed many a time anyone  who deserted labour i nthe past were thickos and gammons , that has been aimed at both people like deppity dawg and cromwell  , and of course i have lost count the amount of times i was called an anti english racist by you.

You are a fraud steve , caught out time and again by your lame and empty words and feeble excuses.

Labour arent out of power because of nasty scot nats ,or thicko gammon racist english.

You ar out of power because you have failed to represent the very people who once elected you and trusted you , acted disgracefully and incompetent when last  in power , and as deppity and cromwell point out time and again , look down your snobby feckin noses at the working class and lecture us on what we should think and believe from your middle class university educated south east english ivory towers .

Labour are dying , and without the FPTP stitch up , you would be extinct by now.

[Thomas]

I spread myself over multiple forums - you do not have my exclusive attention, sorry to break it to you - so yes I will log off sometimes and post elsewhere.

But as you can see, when I have the time and a spare moment I will tend to return.

So do many of us. I come on here to get a break from scottish forums and listen to a different political perspective.

Your "absence" excuse might wash with people who dont know you , but for people like myself and cromwell who have known you online for ten years or so , its a pathetic lame excuse.

You are well known for taking eveything to heart , and throwing your rattle out your pram and running off forums when people dont agree with you.

We have seen it time and again over the years , and then normally you slink back on years later "when the coast is clear" to begin again , with the same results as before.

Told you before steve , you are probably too nice a guy in real life with a very sheltered naive view of the world , and the cut and thrust of debate on adult forums isnt for you in my opinion.

Once you get off those labour hame forums , or come out of the local mometum club after meeting up with the brothers and sisters , its a big world out there full of differing political views , and labour just dont cut the mustard for many of us any more .

[Thomas]

When I am accused of talking down to people for addressing their legitimate concerns,

Most folk i talk to about politics from various backgrounds have a legitimate concern. That legitimate concern is wondering the damage any future labour government will do to their standard of living .

Labour have been out of power for both 14 and 11 years respectively at holyrood and westminster , and we are still feckin clearing up the mess they left and paying their debt .

You cannot be trusted with power , and with other peoples money.