labour whining about coal mine and how they are seen as a result of this

[Barry]

You're right Nick.
Here it is graphically.

[Nick]

I am as critical of that scumbag for that as you are.

In office he continued Thatcherite housing policies unchanged whilst himself profiting from them.

[HIGHLIGHT]The housing crisis of today is part of the price paid.[/HIGHLIGHT]

Don't assume that he is in any way representative of me. I have the utmost disdain for Blair. He achieved what Thatcher alone could never have. He cemented Thatcherism in place so it became the new normal, any challenge to it erroneously assumed to be extremist.

This is where you don't get it: There is no housing crisis, there is no NHS crisis. There is a too many people in the country crisis.

If you go on holiday, buy 20 cheap T shirts and they won't fit in your suitcase, is your suitcase too small? That's what you're saying.

[DeppityDawg]

Actually I rarely talk about identity politics, though I acknowledge that bigotry is real and should not be brushed under the carpet. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant will you?

A rant? Why is challenging you to answer the fecking points put to you a rant? Where have either Thomas, Cromwell or myself said that jobs, employment rights and housing "don't matter"? Where? Where have any of us said these issues are "not important"? Answer the fecking question instead of ducking it again.

As for the "truth", what is the "truth"? Who decides what is the "truth"? You? Feck off Steve. You make this up as you go along. WHERE have I denied bigotry exists? WHERE have I said that racism or sexism or homophobia don't exist, or aren't an issue? You're ducking the point because yet again, you don't have an answer.

Listen, white people can be racist, and you know what, so can black people. Men can be arseholes, and you know what? So can women. Straight people can be ****s, and so can gay people. Creating a victim mentality where these groups can't do any wrong is not helping anyone - all its doing is reinforcing the divisions many of us now feel. You were given the example of Dawn Butler playing identity politics - there is NO EVIDENCE that that "racism" played any part in her being stopped by the police, or in the way she was subsequently treated, by you automatically defend her claims and then hide from the issue by claiming you "rarely talk about identity politics". Bullshit - you've defended it on this very forum. I said we should deal in facts, and if there was evidence of racist actions or behaviour, then proscecute - you on the other hand AUTOMATICALLY defended her claim, just because she SAID it was racism - despite there being NO EVIDENCE. If people like you would be equally prepared to condemn this behaviour as quickly as if there were real evidence of racism, we could get some trust and belief back, but the truth is you aren't. And by doing so, you defend identity politics, so stop pretending you don't support it. All people want to see is FAIRNESS for feck sake

You constantly miss the points being put to you, either because you can't answer them or because you are being deliberately dishonest. You don't get to decide what the truth is, pal, you only get an opinion, like everyone else. People keep telling you why they won't vote labour, and you keep reaffirming over and over again that you are one of the reasons why the party is currently unelectable

[srb7677]

I've told you repeatedly why I dislike the current 'postmodernist' Labour party, and that is because it is wedded to identity politics, mostly to the exclusion of the real issues, and as I've already said, you mentioned some of those real issues, namely jobs, employment rights and housing

Borchester posted a video of some Coca Cola training scheme which tells people to "challenge" their "whiteness". This is the kind of self loathing message that many on the left preach, and many of us are sick and fecking tired of it

For the last time. I don't hate Labour or Labour supporters, but I cannot and will not vote for it as long as it continues to divide people along racial, gender and sexuality lines. Don't claim it isn't true, because you display this attitude virtually every time you write something on this board.

There are not "victims" and "oppressors" - There are not "good guys" and "bad guys". There are simply real people with all sorts of problems, many of which they share regardless of their gender or their ethnicity. The left is NOT addressing those problems, it is allowing victim groups to hijack its course and direction - until it learns that "straight white people" are not to blame for every fecking thing, it will not get them to vote for it. Its not a mystery. If you constantly tell a portion of the population they are shit, don't be surprised when they won't support you at the ballot box

Actually I rarely talk about identity politics, though I acknowledge that bigotry is real and should not be brushed under the carpet. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant will you?

[Thomas]

I don't care what Thomas says. In answer to you, I am no fan of Labour in Scotland and have said before that were I a Scot living in Scotland I'd probably have fallen in behind the SNP myself.

There you go again with that same old tired worn out pathetic attempt at duplicity , by trying to convince people that the bits of labour you say you are no fan of( blairite labour in england , scottish labour welsh labour etc) are "something other" from the party you suport.

Labour in scotland steve are the same party as labour in England. Labour in my home city of glasgow are the same party as labour in your home city of plymouth.

More to the point , numerous labour party branch managers in scotland , johan lamont and kezia dugdale to name but a few , have all famously complained that labour in scotland cannot be an effective progressive party in scotland for scotland because party headquarters in your countries capital city london wont let them.

For example , labour party branch manager in scotland kezia dugdale famously said in 2016 labour in scotland would oppose trident renewal  ,



and not long after she faced a humiliating climbdown in front of the scottish public as labour hq in your country commited labour in scotland to trident renewal.

Who can forget johan lamont angrily standing down as labour branch manager dur to labours in scotlands "lack" of autonomy..

Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont has resigned with immediate effect after accusing the UK party of treating Scotland like a "branch office".

The 56-year-old MSP indicated that she had "had enough".

Ms Lamont was also angry that key decisions, including the removal of Scottish Labour general secretary Ian Price, were made without her input.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29765415

The fact speak for themselves steve , and the idea labour in scotland/england/wales/blairite labour or any other kind of labour that you dont like are something different from the labour you do like is of course complete nonsense.

[DeppityDawg]

Cromwell insists upon constantly throwing my former use of the word back in my face at every opportunity, in spite of my regrets and attempts to move on. Obviously that is not allowed so if I get it thrown back at me at every turn why bother to avoid it? It is pointless.

As for what is and is not important, you may not have denied the importance of the things I argued for, but you constantly attack the Labour party and myself for advocating them. Seems your dislike of the messenger matters more to you than the message. And in that sense it appears that the message is less important to you than your hatred of the messenger. Which gives it's own impression that you have disdain for the message, seeing it as Labour talking down to you for saying something you say you agree with. Lol

So when Labour says something you disagree with you hate it for it. But when it says something you agree with you hate it for talking down to you. You are therefore clearly a lost cause, cemented in your hate no matter what the party does. You have no open mind at all. Cromwell is himself a less bullish version of you who nevertheless thinks the same way.

I've told you repeatedly why I dislike the current 'postmodernist' Labour party, and that is because it is wedded to identity politics, mostly to the exclusion of the real issues, and as I've already said, you mentioned some of those real issues, namely jobs, employment rights and housing

Borchester posted a video of some Coca Cola training scheme which tells people to "challenge" their "whiteness". This is the kind of self loathing message that many on the left preach, and many of us are sick and fecking tired of it

For the last time. I don't hate Labour or Labour supporters, but I cannot and will not vote for it as long as it continues to divide people along racial, gender and sexuality lines. Don't claim it isn't true, because you display this attitude virtually every time you write something on this board.

There are not "victims" and "oppressors" - There are not "good guys" and "bad guys". There are simply real people with all sorts of problems, many of which they share regardless of their gender or their ethnicity. The left is NOT addressing those problems, it is allowing victim groups to hijack its course and direction - until it learns that "straight white people" are not to blame for every fecking thing, it will not get them to vote for it. Its not a mystery. If you constantly tell a portion of the population they are shit, don't be surprised when they won't support you at the ballot box

[cromwell]

I don't care what Thomas says. In answer to you, I am no fan of Labour in Scotland and have said before that were I a Scot living in Scotland I'd probably have fallen in behind the SNP myself. As for your local Labour council if you hate it so much then vote for somebody else. Though if you think the Tories are likely to be an improvement you are likely to be very disappointed. I suggest you vote for your local councillor candidate on their merits regardless of party.

But I am talking largely about Labour as a UK party in England primarily, because Wales and Scotland have their own polities. And I am speaking of policy at the national level, not the local. My own local Labour council is predominantly a Blairite entity so I have issues at the local level too. Some engage in overt bullying and abuse of anyone on the left and actively wage war on us, whilst expecting our support in elections. The local party here is not entirely a happy ship.

You're choice,but Thomas and I have had disagreements that make yours look like handbags at dawn,he's a Glaswegian ffs not pansy potter..... but like a lot of posters here there's a lot more than appears on the surface......it is a forum and nobody really knows anyone else other than their forum persona.
As someone on the old old forum said it's all pixels in hyperspace none of it matters.

To answer your point though it's taking a while to get through that they're being conned,I don't expect a lot from tories but are on occasion pleasantly surprised..

[srb7677]

It's as Thomas says they aren't doing it in Scotland,the SNP didn't replace labour on the promise of just indy,the've had decades in Scotland & Wales.

In Mancland my neck of the woods where they're in perma power they order new chairs for councillors backsides costing a fortune and cut services there's other stuff too but I can't put it on here.

I don't care what Thomas says. In answer to you, I am no fan of Labour in Scotland and have said before that were I a Scot living in Scotland I'd probably have fallen in behind the SNP myself. As for your local Labour council if you hate it so much then vote for somebody else. Though if you think the Tories are likely to be an improvement you are likely to be very disappointed. I suggest you vote for your local councillor candidate on their merits regardless of party.

But I am talking largely about Labour as a UK party in England primarily, because Wales and Scotland have their own polities. And I am speaking of policy at the national level, not the local. My own local Labour council is predominantly a Blairite entity so I have issues at the local level too. Some engage in overt bullying and abuse of anyone on the left and actively wage war on us, whilst expecting our support in elections. The local party here is not entirely a happy ship.

[cromwell]

Starmer is definetly saruman....gazed into the palantir , spoke to sauron blair , and is now changed into an evil follower of the blairite cult if he wasnt already before.

More like Grima Wormtongue 

[Thomas]

I think burn ham is one of the cave trolls,turned to stone and does feck all

Starmer is definetly saruman....gazed into the palantir , spoke to sauron blair , and is now changed into an evil follower of the blairite cult if he wasnt already before.

[cromwell]

I think we need john of gwent to address this thread and tell us all the wonderfull things the labour run utopia in wales has delivered to the welsh people since 1999.

Im all ears waiting for it , after excitedly reading steves limp wristed promises of the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow as old timers like you and i from glasgow and manc land know fine well , i suspect labour run wales heaven on earth  has never appeared , with all the usual excuses as to why not ,  just as it never appeared in 80 years in glasgow or all the years they have run manchester.

I think steve is that gullble we could sit him in the corner and convince him tolkiens middle earth is real , racheal reeve is galadriel , and starmer is elrond , and andy burnham is frodo.

I think burn ham is one of the cave trolls,turned to stone and does feck all

[Thomas]

It's as Thomas says they aren't doing it in Scotland,the SNP didn't replace laboir on the promise of just indy,the've had decades in Scotland& Wales.

In Mancland my neck of the woods where they're in perma power they order new chairs for councillors backsides costing a fortune and cut services there's other stuff too but I can't put it on here.

I think we need @johnofgwent to address this thread and tell us all the wonderfull things the labour run utopia in wales has delivered to the welsh people since 1999.

Im all ears waiting for it , after excitedly reading steves limp wristed promises of the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow as old timers like you and i from glasgow and manc land know fine well , i suspect labour run wales heaven on earth  has never appeared , with all the usual excuses as to why not ,  just as it never appeared in 80 years in glasgow or all the years they have run manchester.

I think steve is that gullble we could sit him in the corner and convince him tolkiens middle earth is real , racheal reeve is galadriel , and starmer is elrond , and andy burnham is frodo.

[Thomas]

You'll never get change thinking like that.

you`ll never get change blindly following a dead party , and doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time.

Only a fool makes the same mistake twice.

[cromwell]

It's as Thomas says they aren't doing it in Scotland,the SNP didn't replace labour on the promise of just indy,the've had decades in Scotland & Wales.

In Mancland my neck of the woods where they're in perma power they order new chairs for councillors backsides costing a fortune and cut services there's other stuff too but I can't put it on here.

[Thomas]

Blair often promised without delivering. But the party should not be permanently judged for all time by his standards.

yes it should.

I didnt like jeremy corbyn , and i have given my reasons many a time why , but your permanently judged for all time argument may have held some small truism behind it with corbyn and co.......but not with starmer and his fellow blairites.

The blairite leader may have changed , the ideology remains the same , and that is your fundamental problem in both england and scotland.