Well who do you believe?

[patman post]

Re: Well who do you believe? 

Stories of James Le Mesurier read like Lawrence of Arabia, Sidney Reilly and, to a lesser extent, Armand Hemmer. I doubt anyone will ever know the full story, or even be sure what's actually true...

Armand Hammer!!! — helping Mrs with the Prosecco, should have stuck to Stripe and Wray & Nephew..

[patman post]

Re: Well who do you believe? 

Stories of James Le Mesurier read like Lawrence of Arabia, Sidney Reilly and, to a lesser extent, Armand Hemmer. I doubt anyone will ever know the full story, or even be sure what's actually true...

[Sampanviking]

Sampan, we would not be free to say the things we do on this website if we lived in Russia or China - at least we would not be free for long. Now, many people believe that this would be a price worth paying and good luck to them. However, I think such things that deter free speech and open criticism are not generally good for societies in the longer term. In the short term it is advantageous provided the nation's elite are dedicated, intelligent, are willing to listen and have the benefit of the wider population at heart (moreso than their own personal power and wealth). As is said, a benevolent dictator (and I would add intelligent and good at listening) can be good but this is a state that rarely remains this way.

In recent times, in China, the country has benefitted from a very controlled economy. Those in the cities have seen their material wealth increase substantially. (This is not so in the wider rural areas though). One reason for this is the abandonment of pay ceilings for entrepreneurs, so China now has Billionaires, though still most people have a wage that would not be attractive to most in the west. Such a controlled economy, and also such a controlled information feed to its people, has many advantages over other countries. Anyone arguing against this (or having websites like this) are not tolerated. There are many who believe this to be a price worth paying. An ancient Chinese poem goes:- I dig my well, I plough my land, what care I who rules the world. (This is from memory so I hope I got it right). It speaks like "anything for a quiet life" but it also speaks of lack of knowledge of the rest of the world and I don't think it will sta that way in China.

Russia is very different. As I have mentioned before I spent some time in the former USSR (when Bresniev was leading it) and it was a poor country with many people (illegally) begging but where the loyal few drove around in the best cars and could boast of being allowed to travel to the west. It has changed greatly since then but not always for the better. It is now run by a dictator who hands out scraps but keeps vast wealth for himself and the loyal.

What these place have in common is total control over information and of the armed forces and police. This may be better than starving but it will change with increases in wealth. I note people on another thread complaining about the BBC but the Beeb are allowed to criticise the government (and do so) as well as other news outlets.

I could make this a long essay so I'll stop now :-)

I will come back - needless to say I think your wrong on virtually every point. It is 12:30am so I am not going to start an essay now either.

[Sampanviking]

Wow happily encouraging demonstrations,people protesting is a problem?

So how would you feel if you were threatened for saying that on here?

Oh right so if I went around rioting and attacking people that disagreed with me and carrying signs in Chinese saying "China please come and rescue us" you think my feet would not touch the ground?
Hong Kong is a Chinese City in China and sits at the far end of a vast Urban Triangle that encompasses the entire Pearl River/Delta area of Guangdong. It stretches from Hong Kong in the East, up to Guangzhou and back down to Macau in the West. It is physically a part of one of the worlds greatest Megalopolis's and is destined to take its place within a formal creation of such likely to be declared in the coming decade.
The agreement with the UK was a 50 year transition period to integrate with the mainland. If anyone was so naive or arrogant as to believe that the Chinese Civilisation was going to jettison its history and culture to become a sad third rate clone of the US, they were simply either deluded or being incredulous. Hong Kong is moving transitioning to becoming a proper Chinese City. It was hardly going to be put into Stasis for fifty years just to flip overnight at the end of it. That would be pointless and they might just as well have flipped it in 97 in that case.
In all the hysteria and hubris megaphoned on the the issue by the West, none has actually demonstrated a breach of the Basic Law by the Chinese side. Even the introduction of a Security Law is catered for within it. Even to state that the introduction of the law is a responsibility of HKSAR Govt, but if it fails to do so, then Central Govt is required to do so on its behalf. This is what has happened.
What is definitely not permitted in the Basic Law is to call for Succession and to seek the Intervention of Foreign powers on Sovereign Chinese Territory. 
Guess to many in the Westminster Regime still think they have an Empire.   

[Sheepy]

Yes you are deflecting.
I asked if a Trump could be elected there,you ignore that and tell me the PRC is communist......really who knew?

Whatever, if you say so.

[cromwell]

No and as I said the PRC is communist, but I am not using it to deflect from the fact that the British government is acting like a bunch of fascists either.

Yes you are deflecting.
I asked if a Trump could be elected there,you ignore that and tell me the PRC is communist......really who knew?

[Sheepy]

Yes they did,but thsat's not the question asked is it?

No and as I said the PRC is communist, but I am not using it to deflect from the fact that the British government is acting like a bunch of fascists either.

[cromwell]

As far as I know, Trump stood on a republican ticket and it was the like of the BBC that blamed populism, in fact on the old forum I even said he wasn't a populist. Guess what? the PRC is communist who knew.

Yes they did,but that's not the question asked is it?

[Sheepy]

i don't have to ask them anything,would you ask why a populist vote isn't available in China or Russia to elect a Trump type?

As far as I know, Trump stood on a republican ticket and it was the like of the BBC that blamed populism, in fact on the old forum I even said he wasn't a populist. Guess what? the PRC is communist who knew.

[cromwell]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48821640
I have never ever encouraged smashing the place up and ask the Americans how they feel about protesters doing the same thing.

i don't have to ask them anything,would you ask why a populist vote isn't available in China or Russia to elect a Trump type?

[Sheepy]

Wow happily encouraging demonstrations,people protesting is a problem?

So how would you feel if you were threatened fopr saying that on here?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48821640
I have never ever encouraged smashing the place up and ask the Americans how they feel about protesters doing the same thing.

[cromwell]

Well on that note, the Chinese warned British and US security services about stirring up problems in Hong Kong, or they would take stronger measures so the BBC reporting after the fact as usual, who by the way also happily encouraged the demonstrations at the time, when everyone else was saying both sides should stick with the original agreement, so I guess it is past that now Cromwell.

Wow happily encouraging demonstrations,people protesting is a problem?

So how would you feel if you were threatened for saying that on here?

[Sheepy]

Well it's on the beeb..................... ipso facto it's all lies if you are blnkered 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56228363

Well on that note, the Chinese warned British and US security services about stirring up problems in Hong Kong, or they would take stronger measures so the BBC reporting after the fact as usual, who by the way also happily encouraged the demonstrations at the time, when everyone else was saying both sides should stick with the original agreement, so I guess it is past that now Cromwell.

[cromwell]

Well it's on the beeb..................... ipso facto it's all lies if you are blnkered 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56228363

[grumzed]

Sampan, we would not be free to say the things we do on this website if we lived in Russia or China - at least we would not be free for long. Now, many people believe that this would be a price worth paying and good luck to them. However, I think such things that deter free speech and open criticism are not generally good for societies in the longer term. In the short term it is advantageous provided the nation's elite are dedicated, intelligent, are willing to listen and have the benefit of the wider population at heart (moreso than their own personal power and wealth). As is said, a benevolent dictator (and I would add intelligent and good at listening) can be good but this is a state that rarely remains this way.

In recent times, in China, the country has benefitted from a very controlled economy. Those in the cities have seen their material wealth increase substantially. (This is not so in the wider rural areas though). One reason for this is the abandonment of pay ceilings for entrepreneurs, so China now has Billionaires, though still most people have a wage that would not be attractive to most in the west. Such a controlled economy, and also such a controlled information feed to its people, has many advantages over other countries. Anyone arguing against this (or having websites like this) are not tolerated. There are many who believe this to be a price worth paying. An ancient Chinese poem goes:- I dig my well, I plough my land, what care I who rules the world. (This is from memory so I hope I got it right). It speaks like "anything for a quiet life" but it also speaks of lack of knowledge of the rest of the world and I don't think it will sta that way in China.

Russia is very different. As I have mentioned before I spent some time in the former USSR (when Bresniev was leading it) and it was a poor country with many people (illegally) begging but where the loyal few drove around in the best cars and could boast of being allowed to travel to the west. It has changed greatly since then but not always for the better. It is now run by a dictator who hands out scraps but keeps vast wealth for himself and the loyal.

What these place have in common is total control over information and of the armed forces and police. This may be better than starving but it will change with increases in wealth. I note people on another thread complaining about the BBC but the Beeb are allowed to criticise the government (and do so) as well as other news outlets.

I could make this a long essay so I'll stop now :-)