So Ner!

[Sampanviking]

It is for the pedlars of conspiracy theories to prove that they are right. You offer a theory with no evidence, just an opinion based on assumptions.

Well what I have is a guess, based on the evidence of various events, associated through the prism of experience of Political behavior in a Liberal Western Democracy.
You are fully entitled to disagree, that's fine
I will not be offended
I will not record it as a Hate Crime
I will not seek to cancel you.

It is you however, that attacks my guess for being logically fallacious? If that is the case, then you have seen a logical flaw in my guess which you should be able to describe, that after all, being the nature of logic and its ability to distinguish and identity absurdity. Can you not illustrate my absurdity that is contrary to logic in my guess for me?

If not, because you simply used language looser than you should, just be man enough to admit it, I wont make a song or dance about it. 

[cromwell]

No need for the harshness of tone. You ought to know that no left winger regards the Mail as a reliable source, though at the same time I never said it must be a lie. The Mail is though well known for being one of the least reliable, least reputable and least honest of media outlets. If you want me to question your sources less, provide better sources

I have however already said I am no fan of Thornberry so what is your big argument with me? I don't trust her morally or politically. I am agreeing with you quite a lot yet you seem determined to be disparaging and argumentative regardless.

So calling Thornberry and Von Der Liar is harsh.....really?

[GerryT]

First the EU did help fund AZ to develop their Vaccine. See below, back in June the EU agreed to purchase 300m doses of the vaccine in a advanced purchase agreement, the advance payment helped the vaccine development and that money was set against future deliveries. The EU in their contract specifically mentions two AZ facilities in the EU as well as the EU manufacturing. It is AZ that is breaking contracts.

"The European Commission presented on 17 June a European strategy to accelerate the development, manufacturing and deployment of effective and safe vaccines against COVID-19. In return for the right to buy a specified number of vaccine doses in a given timeframe, the Commission would finance part of the upfront costs faced by vaccines producers in the form of Advance Purchase Agreements. Funding provided would be considered as a down-payment on the vaccines that will actually be purchased by Member States."
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_1438

The EU has an issue with AZ and not particularily the UK, but what's happening is the UK has restricted AZ from shipping any of it's UK manufactured vaccine out of the UK. The EU on the other hand has shipped 38million vaccine viles out of the EU, the UK has received 9million of these. Somewhat hypocritical of the UK taking offence that the EU is considering restricting shipments to specific countries when the UK does exactly that to ALL countries.
So what is it the EU is looking to do ?  well they are considering blocking the shipment of EU manufactured vaccines to any country that manufactures vaccines and prevents the shipment of any of those vaccines out of their country but are receiving vaccines manufactured in the EU. The EU will continue to ship to countries like Canada or Africa where they don't manufacture themselves but may stop shipping to countries like the UK and USA who have a blockade on shipping out of their country.

So while many of you are thinking the EU=bad, it's no where as bad as the UK who won't ship to anyone.

[srb7677]

Priceless....so it's in the mail so must be a lie.....apparently it's not the first https://www.libdemvoice.org/labour-hypocrisy-alive-and-well-in-islington-1303.html but it's for her brother......oh that's al;right then,bloody hypocrite.

Just like Mrs Von Der Liar anothe hyopocrite

No need for the harshness of tone. You ought to know that no left winger regards the Mail as a reliable source, though at the same time I never said it must be a lie. The Mail is though well known for being one of the least reliable, least reputable and least honest of media outlets. If you want me to question your sources less, provide better sources

I have however already said I am no fan of Thornberry so what is your big argument with me? I don't trust her morally or politically. I am agreeing with you quite a lot yet you seem determined to be disparaging and argumentative regardless.

[cromwell]

Thank you.

I would have preferred a much more reliable source than the Daily Fail which we on the left are familiar with for spouting bollocks, propaganda and distortions. Know your audience, . If you want to persuade a lefty, quoting the Daily Mail at him is not a good tactic, .

But if the details are precisely as reported - which cannot be relied upon with the Mail - then it looks like another example of someone on the right of our party profitting out of the Thatcherite consensus, and in her case putting family gain above principle. I have no time for that.

However, away from the Mail spiel she does appear to have brought the property to house her brother, and not simply in pursuit of profit, and the brother still lives there. So any profit remains notional until or unless she sells. In that event I would strongly advise her to donate any profit to charity but doubt that she will.

I have never been Thornberry's biggest fan. I regard her as a fake lefty with snobbish disdain for the working classes. She uses any leftist position she takes purely as a career advancing gambit and not out of conviction. She nevertheless remains fairly popular amongst middle class Labour members, probably because they see themselves reflected in her. And probably share in the failure to disassociate personal gain and ambition from principle. Many middle class people do fetishize personal aspiration and self betterment as an ideal in itself which leads to a muddying of the moral waters in some cases.

Priceless....so it's in the mail so must be a lie.....apparently it's not the first https://www.libdemvoice.org/labour-hypocrisy-alive-and-well-in-islington-1303.html but it's for her brother......oh that's al;right then,bloody hypocrite.

Just like Mrs Von Der Liar anothe hyopocrite

[srb7677]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5954507/Emily-Thornberrys-husband-500K-selling-housing-association-property-defying-Labour-policy.html

Thank you.

I would have preferred a much more reliable source than the Daily Fail which we on the left are familiar with for spouting bollocks, propaganda and distortions. Know your audience, . If you want to persuade a lefty, quoting the Daily Mail at him is not a good tactic, .

But if the details are precisely as reported - which cannot be relied upon with the Mail - then it looks like another example of someone on the right of our party profitting out of the Thatcherite consensus, and in her case putting family gain above principle. I have no time for that.

However, away from the Mail spiel she does appear to have brought the property to house her brother, and not simply in pursuit of profit, and the brother still lives there. So any profit remains notional until or unless she sells. In that event I would strongly advise her to donate any profit to charity but doubt that she will.

I have never been Thornberry's biggest fan. I regard her as a fake lefty with snobbish disdain for the working classes. She uses any leftist position she takes purely as a career advancing gambit and not out of conviction. She nevertheless remains fairly popular amongst middle class Labour members, probably because they see themselves reflected in her. And probably share in the failure to disassociate personal gain and ambition from principle. Many middle class people do fetishize personal aspiration and self betterment as an ideal in itself which leads to a muddying of the moral waters in some cases.

[cromwell]

You will have to fill me in on some of the details of that. But I myself am no great fan of Thornberry. And I am no fan of party members profitting personally out of the Thatcherite consensus, which they then customarily seek to become defenders of. Our party is not disunited for nothing. We are not afraid to be critical of our own.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5954507/Emily-Thornberrys-husband-500K-selling-housing-association-property-defying-Labour-policy.html

[srb7677]

Well apart from the fact you got the news story wrong,obsessed? no actually but bloody annoyed not at their opposition to Brexit but an ongoing campaign still to overturn it which is now more hidden,Btw how is Thornberry or to be more precise lady Nugee getting along with suing Carline Flint? she has gone quiet on that and her family involvement in buying an ex housing association property contrary to party policy bought at a bargain price and now worth over a million.

You will have to fill me in on some of the details of that. But I myself am no great fan of Thornberry. And I am no fan of party members profitting personally out of the Thatcherite consensus, which they then customarily seek to become defenders of. Our party is not disunited for nothing. We are not afraid to be critical of our own.

[cromwell]

Labour can be many things depending upon who is calling the shots. We are not a united party right now and opinions differ over Brexit and many other things. You see it as the great monolith of negativity towards your cherished ideal of Brexit, opposition to which you have not and will never forgive it for. You have long since become obsessed about the issue to the exclusion of much else. In fact for many in the Labour party, particularly on the progressive left who are often out of step with Starmer and co, such issues as homelessness, unaffordable housing, shit jobs, crap pay, economic insecurity, a shitty deal for young people, matter so much more. I waste little time worrying about Brexit anymore in the face of all these other challenges, except insofar as it may influence them.

Will Brexit be good or bad for us? It may be a little of both. But the jury is still out on that and time will tell. But it is not my overiding concern in the face of so much struggle, poverty and inequality.

Well apart from the fact you got the news story wrong,obsessed? no actually but bloody annoyed not at their opposition to Brexit but an ongoing campaign still to overturn it which is now more hidden,Btw how is Thornberry or to be more precise lady Nugee getting along with suing Carline Flint? she has gone quiet on that and her family involvement in buying an ex housing association property contrary to party policy bought at a bargain price and now worth over a million.

[srb7677]

Labour has been divided and out of power for so long it seems to be its natural state. Seems to me that as it is unlikely to regain power at the next election, it should concentrate on planning ways of raising the living standards of the disadvantaged and struggling, while also lessening the amount of government in our daily lives — a tough ask for Socialists...

Labour remains divided not least because Starmer has chosen to pick a fight with the left instead of being the unity leader he promised to be. He also appears to want to row back on the only thing people liked about us - our policies - in pursuit of narrow centrism that transforms little. He risks in this losing us more support than he gains and leading us to defeat. A big test is the coming local elections. I fear Labour will do badly in them or at least nowhere near as well as we need to. But let's see. If we do badly there will be an ever rising vocal chorus in our party against Starmer. If we do well he will buy himself more time.

As for government, we on the left tend to favour state intervention if it is in the cause of social justice, equality, and economic prosperity. We support government as enabler, benefactor, and benign intervener, though we on the democratic left at least tend to instinctively oppose it as enforcer. We are not afraid of an interventionist state and see great value in it, but have no appetite for any government micro-managing our private lives.

[patman post]

Will Brexit be good or bad for us? It may be a little of both. But the jury is still out on that and time will tell. But it is not my overiding concern in the face of so much struggle, poverty and inequality.

Struggle, poverty and inequality were here when the UK was inside the EU. The concern must be will that be worse or better outside the EU. There were many disparate ideas and plans to alleviate SP&I during the 47 years the UK was in the EU. The worry must be that as few previous plans gave dramatic improvements, how is the UK going to come up with the sets of plans and ideas to better cope with the new and, probably, varying situations over the coming years? 


Labour has been divided and out of power for so long it seems to be its natural state. Seems to me that as it is unlikely to regain power at the next election, it should concentrate on planning ways of raising the living standards of the disadvantaged and struggling, while also lessening the amount of government in our daily lives — a tough ask for Socialists...

[srb7677]

You mean like the ones that say labour is all sweetness and light only want what's best for us and didn't try to overthrow the brexit referendum,oh and almost forgot didn't label long term voters thick and stupid then said they were right wingers when they saw through them and took their vote elsewhere.

Labour can be many things depending upon who is calling the shots. We are not a united party right now and opinions differ over Brexit and many other things. You see it as the great monolith of negativity towards your cherished ideal of Brexit, opposition to which you have not and will never forgive it for. You have long since become obsessed about the issue to the exclusion of much else. In fact for many in the Labour party, particularly on the progressive left who are often out of step with Starmer and co, such issues as homelessness, unaffordable housing, shit jobs, crap pay, economic insecurity, a shitty deal for young people, matter so much more. I waste little time worrying about Brexit anymore in the face of all these other challenges, except insofar as it may influence them.

Will Brexit be good or bad for us? It may be a little of both. But the jury is still out on that and time will tell. But it is not my overiding concern in the face of so much struggle, poverty and inequality.

[srb7677]

Educate me Steve, illustrate just how and why I have it wrong... please...

It is for the pedlars of conspiracy theories to prove that they are right. You offer a theory with no evidence, just an opinion based on assumptions.

[Sampanviking]

Another ridiculous conspiracy theory. Seems to be the stock in trade around here, in the absence of logic and evidence.

Educate me Steve, illustrate just how and why I have it wrong... please...

[cromwell]

Another ridiculous conspiracy theory. Seems to be the stock in trade around here, in the absence of logic and evidence.

You mean like the ones that say labour is all sweetness and light only want what's best for us and didn't try to overthrow the brexit referendum,oh and almost forgot didn't label long term voters thick and stupid then said they were right wingers when they saw through them and took their vote elsewhere.