Derek Chauvin is innocent

[Tarn]

I don't but I lived in Charlotte NC for nearly 5 years. I know there are areas in all city's of the US you just don't go to. I don't think you can make the judgement you're making until you've done a job where you get shot at.


You're missing the point. If you're in a highly charged situation you want to have your hands available to you. You've seen that this guy was clearly on something and 4 cops couldn't get him into the police car.

The thing that is irrelevant is that he is trust up on the floor, as I have repeated that isn't where the potential threat is coming from.


You just made my point for me, if their hands are tied up they aren't armed are they really? They just have an unusable gun strapped to their sides.

Well, I haven't lived in the USA, but we have a family friend who lives in California, and I have visited quite often (two years ago was the last such visit).

The attitudes of the police, and the fear of the populace, are quite obvious to even the casual observer. The fact that various US police forces are often in what you term highly charged situations is the result of that ludicrous 2nd Amendment, and the barbarous behaviour of the police in those jurisdictions. If you fear that any motorist who runs a red light may pull a gun on you, and you believe that your uniform affords you invulnerability from legal measures, you might act in the manner most US policemen do.

'Respect mah authoritah!' is apparently not an attitude confined to South Park, and there is no such thing as PACE in the USA.

Police in Australia, the UK, New Zealand, Canada, and most of Europe, perform a necessary and often dangerous service, but do not kill the public at the same rate as in the USA. This further confirms my suspicions that the USA is a very successful military/industrial complex - but a failed society. Schade!

[cromwell]

I can't explain it any further: he is not the threat.

And there we have it,Chauvin did not need to have his knee on his neck

He is being detained, and as we have established the cops are trained to use their knees.

Which goes back to an earlier post I made about poor training.

The only possible reason for this is to keep their hands free for other purposes. Using their radio to call for backup, accessing their taser/gun and even crowd control with hand gestures.

Well I could give a few hand gesture regarding Chauvin and his actions but T00ts might log on 

[cromwell]

I don't but I lived in Charlotte NC for nearly 5 years. I know there are areas in all city's of the US you just don't go to. I don't think you can make the judgement you're making until you've done a job where you get shot at.


You're missing the point. If you're in a highly charged situation you want to have your hands available to you. You've seen that this guy was clearly on something and 4 cops couldn't get him into the police car.

The thing that is irrelevant is that he is trust up on the floor, as I have repeated that isn't where the potential threat is coming from.


You just made my point for me, if their hands are tied up they aren't armed are they really? They just have an unusable gun strapped to their sides.

Why instead of all those irrelevancies & diversions wont you answer this simple question Floyd was unable to be a threat to anyone as I have previously described therefore negating Chauvins knee on the neck, so please explain why it was neccessary?

[Nick]

what threat Floyd presented at that time that warranted the knee on his neck.

I can't explain it any further: he is not the threat.

He is being detained, and as we have established the cops are trained to use their knees.
The only possible reason for this is to keep their hands free for other purposes. Using their radio to call for backup, accessing their taser/gun and even crowd control with hand gestures.

[Nick]

Well how do you know what threat there was?

I don't but I lived in Charlotte NC for nearly 5 years. I know there are areas in all city's of the US you just don't go to. I don't think you can make the judgement you're making until you've done a job where you get shot at.

What's that got to do with anything? the issue here is that at 14 minutes in to that vid Floyd was cuffed hands behind back and in leg restraints and Chauvn had his knee on his neck  so before he was on the ground is an irrelevance.

You're missing the point. If you're in a highly charged situation you want to have your hands available to you. You've seen that this guy was clearly on something and 4 cops couldn't get him into the police car.

The thing that is irrelevant is that he is trust up on the floor, as I have repeated that isn't where the potential threat is coming from.

Yeah they were complaining about his treatment,I guess they were going to attack the cops with the phones they were filming with.  and I guess you're looking to justify why you believe there wasn't a problem by conjuring up a non existent [highlight]threat that four armed cops couldn't deal with[/highlight].

You just made my point for me, if their hands are tied up they aren't armed are they really? They just have an unusable gun strapped to their sides.

[cromwell]

Are these the same 4 cops that can't get one man into a car?

So what do you suggest,perhaps if they'd just have shot him outright and saved time?
the fact they couldn't get him in to the car is another irrelevance,he was put on the ground  and I wearily repeat cuffed behind his back and in leg restraints so instead of going on about external threats please explain what threat Floyd presented at that time that warranted the knee on his neck.

[cromwell]

How do you know what threat there is on the streets in that area?

Well how do you know what threat there was?

Before he was on the ground there was a crowd forming.

What's that got to do with anything? the issue here is that at 14 minutes in to that vid Floyd was cuffed hands behind back and in leg restraints and Chauvn had his knee on his neck  so before he was on the ground is an irrelevance.

You can hear the cops say 'don't you come over here' so there is clearly an element of the crowd moving towards the cops.

Yeah they were complaining about his treatment,I guess they were going to attack the cops with the phones they were filming with. and I guess you're looking to justify why you believe there wasn't a problem by conjuring up a non existent threat that four armed cops couldn't deal with.

[T00ts]

My only thought when watching the video was about the look on the copper's face. It was a strange expression, very calm almost unconcerned. I could see no reason for him not to move, I just think he didn't want to. I felt he knew what he was doing.

I recently read of the same treatment of a woman. They broke her neck.

[Nick]

there were four cops there more than enough free hands to counter any threat

Are these the same 4 cops that can't get one man into a car?

[Nick]

You stated that using a method like a knee on the neck was to counter an outside threat by leaving hands free,Floyd was going nowhere there was no need for the knee on his neck and there were four cops there more than enough free hands to counter any threat,so I repeat that doesn't wash does it?

How do you know what threat there is on the streets in that area?
Before he was on the ground there was a crowd forming. You can hear the cops say 'don't you come over here' so there is clearly an element of the crowd moving towards the cops.

[Barry]

However, it is demonstrable that Floyd did not die at home from an overdose of anything - the proximate cause of death found by Dr Baker, and the other doctor who performed a further autopsy, was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

All very well, but I do wish the Americans could speak the Queen's English, as the use of "complicating law enforcement" in that sentence is weird.
That said, Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe, but anyone saying they can't breathe, actually can, especially if they can say it multiple times.
I know, he did stop breathing, and that will be judged in due course.
I'd so hate to be on the jury.

[cromwell]

Where did I say he was a threat? I clearly said any threat could come from the sidelines and I for one would want my hands free.

The cops are clearly holding station waiting for some form of transport.

You stated that using a method like a knee on the neck was to counter an outside threat by leaving hands free,Floyd was going nowhere there was no need for the knee on his neck and there were four cops there more than enough free hands to counter any threat,so I repeat that doesn't wash does it?

[Nick]

Well in that scenario Nick that's cobblers,there were four cops there more than enough to cover that event and you evade the  fact he was cuffed behind his back and in leg restraints so please show how he was a threat to anyone.

Where did I say he was a threat? I clearly said any threat could come from the sidelines and I for one would want my hands free.

The cops are clearly holding station waiting for some form of transport.

[cromwell]

The main reason they use that technique is keeping their hands free to be able to access their gun. There is always the chance that someone on the sidelines could pull a gun on them, very different policing.

Well in that scenario Nick that's cobblers,there were four cops there more than enough to cover that event and you evade the  fact he was cuffed behind his back and in leg restraints so please show how he was a threat to anyone.

[cromwell]

Thanks for the welcome. I have not abandoned the place, but I am in my first year at uni, and have a lot less free time. 

I understand the points you are making, and I don't want to jump to any unwarranted conclusions, but I am also informed by comments made by Cromwell, which seem to indicate that (irrespective of training) the technique employed by Chauvin could be considered both unnecessary and dangerous under the circumstances.

Media such as Fox News has made a lot of the otherwise innocuous comment by Dr Andrew Baker - that if Floyd had died in his bed, one might have surmised the proximate cause as an overdose of Fentanyl.

However, it is demonstrable that Floyd did not die at home from an overdose of anything - the proximate cause of death found by Dr Baker, and the other doctor who performed a further autopsy, was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." Whether the cause of death was asphyxiation or a heart attack is arguable, but inconsequential.

The video evidence that Derek Chauvin was the actor who knelt upon Floyd's neck for nearly ten minutes, while Floyd was complaining that he could not breathe, is material and incontrovertible.

Of course I have sympathy for George Floyd's family and loved ones, but my primary concern devolves about the consequences of accepting criminal malfeasance from anyone in uniform or authority.

Befehl ist Befehl did not pass muster at Nuremberg, and should not be acceptable anywhere else.

That's correct  Orders are orders is no excuse,I think we're all looking at a distance from this but the supposed leaders of the free world need to look inwards and see the inadequacies of themselves,the USA is far from perfection  and in many respects the gulf between the haves and have nots not only in monetary terms but justice is much wider than they'd like to acknowledge.