Hillsborough — nobody yet to blame

Started by patman post, November 28, 2019, 07:14:03 PM

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Churchill

#13
November 29, 2019, 12:56:09 PM
Quote from: Barry post_id=7743 time=1575031038 user_id=51
Doesn't the Coroner rule "on the balance of probabilities", whereas a criminal trial must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt".

So the current situation is not likely to be alone in the apparent conflict between Coroner and Criminal proceedings, is it? If I could be bothered, I could probably find others.


 Only a Civil Court works on " Probabilities " to apportion blame the evidence threshold is much lower to reach a verdict than a Criminal Court



Since the enactment of the Criminal Law Act 1977, Coroners are no longer able to consider criminal liability as part of their investigations. There is no power available for the Coroner to frame their determination in such a way as to appear to determine criminal liability on the part of a named individual or organisation or civil liability (as defined by section 10(2) of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009).



As far as I am aware that is still the case.
<r><COLOR color=\"#4000FF\">>After years of waiting at long last on our way out of the EU <E>]</e></COLOR></r>

Barry

#12
November 29, 2019, 12:37:18 PM
Quote from: Churchill post_id=7740 time=1575030573 user_id=69
A Coroners Inquest did deliver a verdict of Unlawfully Killed however a Coroner cannot apportion blame or guilt , that has to be proved in a Criminal Trial, the Crown has not been able to do so

Doesn't the Coroner rule "on the balance of probabilities", whereas a criminal trial must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt".

So the current situation is not likely to be alone in the apparent conflict between Coroner and Criminal proceedings, is it? If I could be bothered, I could probably find others.
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Churchill

#11
November 29, 2019, 12:29:33 PM
Quote from: "patman post" post_id=7737 time=1575029704 user_id=70
In 2016, a second inquest returned a verdict of unlawful killing in respect of the 96 victims who lost their lives. All investigations have not so far managed to successfully prosecute any person or organisation.



It's noticeable that it's mostly high-profile people, who made adverse comments about the fans behaviour during and after the disaster, are the ones to have been penalised rather than anyone responsible for the unlawful killing...


A Coroners Inquest did deliver a verdict of Unlawfully Killed however a Coroner cannot apportion blame or guilt , that has to be proved in a Criminal Trial, the Crown has not been able to do so
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patman post

#10
November 29, 2019, 12:15:04 PM
In 2016, a second inquest returned a verdict of unlawful killing in respect of the 96 victims who lost their lives. All investigations have not so far managed to successfully prosecute any person or organisation.



It's noticeable that it's mostly high-profile people, who made adverse comments about the fans behaviour during and after the disaster, are the ones to have been penalised rather than anyone responsible for the unlawful killing...
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Churchill

#9
November 29, 2019, 09:22:25 AM
Quote from: Wiggles post_id=7724 time=1575018751 user_id=87
Hillsborough was typical of all stadiums at that point in history. Health and safety hadn't been invented then. Like I said, there were several factors responsible for the 96 deaths, and to try and pin it on one person who was simply trying to do his job is unfair and unjust.


I agree, they tried him twice and the Jury said not guilty, personally I think the fans without tickets that rushed in that day should shoulder some of the blame, if they had walked it may never have happened or at least that would have given stewards and Police time to filter them in around the ground , a culmination of events that led to a terrible tragedy
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Wiggles

#8
November 29, 2019, 09:12:31 AM
Quote from: Churchill post_id=7723 time=1575018070 user_id=69
How far do you back the bad design of a ground that should have been updated years before to improve health and safety, the pens put in place because they had to keep opposing fans apart to stop them trying to kill each other.



I have no idea if a cover up happened or not, if I am right and there is a trial next year dealing with that we will have to wait and see what a Jury thinks after hearing the evidence.


Hillsborough was typical of all stadiums at that point in history. Health and safety hadn't been invented then. Like I said, there were several factors responsible for the 96 deaths, and to try and pin it on one person who was simply trying to do his job is unfair and unjust.
A hand up, not a hand out

Churchill

#7
November 29, 2019, 09:01:10 AM
How far do you back the bad design of a ground that should have been updated years before to improve health and safety, the pens put in place because they had to keep opposing fans apart to stop them trying to kill each other.



I have no idea if a cover up happened or not, if I am right and there is a trial next year dealing with that we will have to wait and see what a Jury thinks after hearing the evidence.
<r><COLOR color=\"#4000FF\">>After years of waiting at long last on our way out of the EU <E>]</e></COLOR></r>

Wiggles

#6
November 29, 2019, 08:42:40 AM
Quote from: "patman post" post_id=7698 time=1574968443 user_id=70
Despite April 2016 inquest verdict that those who died in the Hillsborough disaster were unlawfully killed, nobody is being held responsible. I guess after 30 years, nobody will...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077


So why does someone have to be blamed. Locking someone up for mistake isn't going to bring back the 96 poor soles who lost their lives. The disaster was a combination of events and bad decisions.

1. The Liverpool supporters should have been put at the other end

2. The gates should not have been opened to allow supporters in without tickets. However, the disruption being caused outside the ground justifies the decision.

3. Supporters with tickets for other pens decided they would go in the central pens. Police have been blamed for this, but surely the supporters were also to blame.

4. Liverpool supporters turning up in their thousands without tickets.



I fully appreciate there was a police cover up, and I have no issue with any individual being tried for perverting the course of justice.



What sickens me is the outright defence of the supporters. People conveniently forget the Heysel disaster, where 39 people lost their lives as a result of Liverpool supporters. At the time Liverpool supporters were a scourge in the football world. I had a friend who was a police officer on duty at Wembley for the final. Again, thousands of supporters turned up without tickets attempting to jump over turnstiles and knock down gates. They learned nothing. I went to the Champions League final in June, supporting Spurs. I travelled up from Murcia on the train, and spent 3 hours talking to Liverpool supporters. Most didn't have tickets, and several of them told me they were going to get into the stadium by what ever means it took. Again, they have learned nothing.



Ultimately David Duckenfield has had his life ruined by family members of the deceased who just want to have somebody blamed. This poor man was doing his job to the best of his ability, and didn't want anyone to be hurt, let alone killed. Whether his decisions were right wrong is almost irrelevant, he had to flip a coin, and it appears it may have landed the wrong way up. If he had locked the supporters outside, and they rioted, I am sure he would have been punished. Rock and hard place comes to mind.



As sad as Hillsborough was there have been far worse disasters before and after. I think it's to move on now
A hand up, not a hand out

Churchill

#5
November 29, 2019, 07:22:11 AM
I think there is another trial set for next year alleging a cover up by the Police not a hundred percent sure, if there is he will be on trial again with others
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Barry

#4
November 28, 2019, 11:13:43 PM
It was an accident of bad planning resulting in the tragic deaths of a large number of people.



To be found guilty of manslaughter there are certain matters which need to be proven,
Quote
1. Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.

2. Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and

3. Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").

1. is a non starter as there was obviously no intent to murder.

2. Gross negligence could apply but it has to be more than an error of judgement or mistake.

3. is a non starter.



So he's innocent after 2 trials.  People can cry justice over and over, but this is justice.
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Churchill

#3
November 28, 2019, 08:19:35 PM
He has been tried twice and cleared some may not like it I fully understand that, but like it or not he is innocent
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cromwell

#2
November 28, 2019, 07:51:51 PM
I think many will be disappointed by this verdict,I wasn't at the trial and didn't hear all the evidence.



A jury were and came to a verdict based on what they heard and saw,is it the right verdict?



Can't say really based on the above,we have a justice system which may at times be flawed but I guess it's as good or better than others around the world.
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patman post

#1
November 28, 2019, 07:14:03 PM
Despite April 2016 inquest verdict that those who died in the Hillsborough disaster were unlawfully killed, nobody is being held responsible. I guess after 30 years, nobody will...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077
On climate change — we're talking, we're beginning to act, but we're still not doing enough...
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