Biden to warn Johnson over NI

[Thomas]

Martyrs What you on about?........merely pointing out what's true that it was said that a country cannot be allowed to leave and seen to prosper,why isn't there any of this crap from the eu about Catalonia......we all know why.

Cromwell ,what are you going on about now?

You have left....you left in january this year , so who has stopped you leaving? You are starting to sound again like a delusional brexiter denying reality cromwell.

Why is von der liar at the G7 if the eu isn't all about a political project  that people insist won't happen.

i havent insisted the eu is or isnt a political project , so why tell me? my points on this thread are primarily about northern ireland.

TBH Thomas I'd tell the eu to shove it.

Perhaps you should pop down to number ten downing street and give johnson some of your backbone.

I see even daft macron insulted him allegedly in his own backyard last night regarding northern ireland not being part of the uk.

[Thomas]

Boris has ignored Joe Biden and told the EU that he will invoke Article 16, as they did in January over the vaccine fiasco.
The treaty has this article to be used :

Has he barry?

Boris hasnt done a thing yet except mouth off to the party faithfull. We all know what a bullshitter the man is , you yourself have said so many a time.

I will wait to see if he takes any action , rather than listening to the latest puerile headlines made from this liars mouth.

[cromwell]

Daniel Hannan, writes in the Telegraph today, that the only way out of this is to cancel the NI protocol, and take any rap that comes our way as a result.
The EU are doing 20% of checks on that border, when only 0.0008% of trade actually crosses that border. It is deliberately disproportionate.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/12/arrogant-eu-wont-budge-inch-have-no-choice-abolish-protocol/
Yes, I know it is paywalled.

That's the polite way of telling them to shove it

[Barry]

Daniel Hannan, writes in the Telegraph today, that the only way out of this is to cancel the NI protocol, and take any rap that comes our way as a result.
The EU are doing 20% of checks on that border, when only 0.0008% of trade actually crosses that border. It is deliberately disproportionate.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/12/arrogant-eu-wont-budge-inch-have-no-choice-abolish-protocol/
Yes, I know it is paywalled.

[cromwell]

You can look at things from the "martyrs " point of view all day long cromwell , and play the victim in all this , but you  ( brexiters)were told from day one how brexit would cause major problems with northern ireland and ignored it with a dismissive wave.

Lets just cast our minds back to what your illustrious prime minisnter said....he said no uk pm could contemplate a border in the irish sea at a DUP conference to massive applause , then swiftly about turned and signed off the northern irish protocol , shafting unionism in the process.



You talk about "punishment" but what did you expect? That everyone was going to bow down and give you your way?

Did someone hold a gun to johnsons head or something when i wasnt looking? Were eu , or american soldiers in northern ireland enforcing the protocol?

Lie after lie has been spoken by the uk government and its minions since day one regarding brexit.

The uk government signed the GFA , it then signed the northern irish protocol , and despite telling us scottish brexit was a uk vote so the uk had to leave( remember stevlins constant bleating on the subject?) it then volte faced and agreed the northern irish remain vote "would" be respected , and northern ireland allowed to stay.

So when you talk about punishment , it seems to be punishment being dished out from your own government from what i can see .

Martyrs What you on about?........merely pointing out what's true that it was said that a country cannot be allowed to leave and seen to prosper,why isn't there any of this crap from the eu about Catalonia......we all know why.

Why is von der liar at the G7 if the eu isn't all about a political project  that people insist won't happen.

TBH Thomas I'd tell the eu to shove it.

[Barry]

Boris has ignored Joe Biden and told the EU that he will invoke Article 16, as they did in January over the vaccine fiasco.
The treaty has this article to be used :

When can it be used?

Article 16 provides both the UK and the EU with a unilateral power to take action should the application of the Protocol give rise to 'serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade.'

Both parties are restricted in the action they can take to address any such issues. It must be limited to the scope of where the problems exist (i.e. a response cannot be taken that will alter the application of the Protocol in any unrelated respect) and there is a process in place which means action cannot happen on a whim or go unchecked.

Article 16 does not provide any detail on what constitutes a 'serious' impact or what is meant by 'diversion of trade'. What causes a serious impact in one place might not in another, so this ambiguity allows for interpretation at a later point.

But the intent behind the agreement is that neither side will seek to act unilaterally to alter the Protocol, and that resolutions will be found through cooperation in the first instance.

[Thomas]

Sturgeon seems to believe so,

I couldnt give a rats arse what nicola sturgeon "allegedly" thinks about most things , never mind trump. Im a scot indy supporter , not a nicola sturgeon fan club supporter.

However , to be fair to her , im not sure i can recall her saying anything that makes her think Trump was any more or less Anglophile than any other american president including biden.

Most americans couldnt tell you where england or scotland are, let alone care , and as we discussed the american political class simply see the yookay as a usefull lapdog , nothing more , and the media are sent out to punt this so called one sided special relationship. America shouts jump , and the yookay says how high.

but like I said, 'if you can believe that

'

I dont , so i think we are in agreement. Trump is a trumpophile first and foremost , and puts his own nations interests to the fore to the exclusion of all else. This was one of the few things many said about trump that was positive , being an inward looking american president unlike obama , he was more likely to mind his own business rather than interfere with others.

Thats gone now with bidens election , and democrat foreign policy and worldwide interference will resume again , as we see with northern ireland.

She was pretty clear during her anti-Trump stance, which mimicked the great powers in London (powers she is supposedly against)

no idea what you are talking about , so you will have to be more specific. Sturgeon is without a doubt anti trump , and has been for years.

She is also a great fan of Biden and believed he'd help her break up the UK if elected, which would mean she is inviting American interference.

Rubbish.

Sturgeon is without doubt a biden and wider democrat fan , without a doubt , but the idea she believes any of the american political class will break up the uk is nonsense.

The american political class , on all sides , want the uk to remain intact and the uk inside the EU. They couldnt care less about internal uk wrangling , as long as the uk remains usefull to america , thats all that matters to them.

Scotland does have friends in the american political class , various groups that john kerry and others are memebrs of  , but not one of them would help scotland one iota to break up the uk "unless" it suited washington. So no idea what you are on about to be honest.

Regarding the relationship then I think everyone knows this.  It's why I am under no illusion.  American interests overrides democracy when the latter doesn't serve the former.

Agreed.

I like the yanks , but no one is under any illusion they see themselves as at the top of the western worlds feudal pyramid and call the shots.

The EU also knows this which is why they jumped on Biden's propaganda and used it against the UK over Brexit.

so cromwell said earlier , but both of you forget neither the yanks nor the europeans would have a leg to stand on over northern ireland if the irish hadnt voted to remain , so you brexiters failed to convinces them and got humped in the process , and if you british hadnt not just signed off the GFA , but then your pm signed off the border in the irish sea.

So there seems to be many blocks you are failing to mention when crying over northern ireland and the big bad europeans and yanks.

The SNP obviously do not give a rat's arse about democracy because they were demanding a second referendum almost immediately after they lost, which demonstrated a total lack of respect for the process.

well thats bollocks right there. You seem fond of inventing things b4.

My recollection of events was that the scot indy movement was crushed and devastated in the aftermath of september 2014 , rudderless with salmond resigning. It took months to get back on track , with first sturgeons taking over the reigns , and then gathering the footsoldiers to go out and canvass for the general election the following year , with the emphasis on crushing labour in scotland which we duly did.

Focus was on brexit therafter , with camerons promise to give the uk a referendum , and we all threw our dice and waited to see where it landed. It wasnt till after the june 2016 brexit ref result that calls for a second indy ref were seriously being called for , many of those calling for one were former no voters who were pro european and felt betrayed by westminster.

So what you call "immediate" was more like the better part of two years.

As for respecting democracy , how many times does it need saying the only people who didnt respect deocmracy were those in your own nation england who supproted the eu , both on the ground and in westmisnter.

They  , and they alone , were the ones trying to stop democracy being implemented.

The 2014 result was implemented , so what are you talking about? Once implemented , democracy by itself is a neverendum , so we are free to go again , just as english remainers , having now taken thier long delayed medicine , are free to campaign for a new ref to rejoin the eu.

The idea a vote happens on something , the result is implemented , and thats it forevermore , is of course mere wild delusion on your part.

It's all about sucking up to power and the sort of power that helped fund and supply the IRA terrorists.

Many people and powers did that , from the yanks , to the russians , from the basques in northern spain to the palestinians.

As for Trump, it doesn't really matter.  His greatest achievement was to highlight the state of American politics, which he did well.  The President of the USA basically told everyone that the American institutions are corrupt, and ends up gagged and silenced by the tech corps.

Trump didnt bother me , as i dont really take much interest in yank politics. He was a class one arsehole , and we scottish had longdealt with him long before most in england had heard of him. Who the yanks elect is their affair , but at one point i was beginning to think he was actually our president that amount of times he was on yookay telly instead of sturgeon , or may/johnson.

P.S. we're both technically British,

so are the northern irish , yet for some reason some of us are apparently more british than others according to westminster.

[B-4]

Trump wasnt an anglophile. Trump is and will always be pro american first and foremost , and everything else comes second to that.

Its just more uk propaganda , while selling these fairy stories of the "special relationship" which boils down to the uk giving the yanks access to bits of whats left of the empire like the base on diego garcia and full backing of american foreign policy no matter what , and in return , the yanks support "britains" continued presence of the un security council  , while protecting uk interests across the globe militarily as the uk no longer has the means to do so.

Every now and again the mask slips from american presidents faces............obama interfering in the scot referendum , then interfering in brexit , and now biden interfering in northern ireland.

American interests come first and foremost , and if uk interests dont coincide , then tough , the yanks pull rank and call the shots.

You talk about biden appeasing ira terrorists , i seem to recall the same thing being said about trump as well. The republican party were extremely pro irish independence as well many years ago , and lets not forget history in that the yanks fought a war against you british for independence which they celebrate every year.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/video-donald-trump-attends-sinn-fein-fundraiser-amid-anti-ira-terror-protests-in-1995-34272622.html

Sturgeon seems to believe so, but like I said, 'if you can believe that'.  She was pretty clear during her anti-Trump stance, which mimicked the great powers in London (powers she is supposedly against).  She is also a great fan of Biden and believed he'd help her break up the UK if elected, which would mean she is inviting American interference. 

Regarding the relationship then I think everyone knows this.  It's why I am under no illusion.  American interests overrides democracy when the latter doesn't serve the former.  The EU also knows this which is why they jumped on Biden's propaganda and used it against the UK over Brexit.  The SNP obviously do not give a rat's arse about democracy because they were demanding a second referendum almost immediately after they lost, which demonstrated a total lack of respect for the process.

It's all about sucking up to power and the sort of power that helped fund and supply the IRA terrorists.  As for Trump, it doesn't really matter.  His greatest achievement was to highlight the state of American politics, which he did well.  The President of the USA basically told everyone that the American institutions are corrupt, and ends up gagged and silenced by the tech corps.

P.S. we're both technically British, with thanks to the Scottish powers during the act of the union, which predates American independence by a little under a century.

[Thomas]

Biden has to appease those who donated weapons and money to the IRA terrorists all those years ago, many of whom are in his party.  He relied on them during his campaign, whilst the New York Guardian hated Trump for being a bit of a anglophile (if you can believe that).

Trump wasnt an anglophile. Trump is and will always be pro american first and foremost , and everything else comes second to that.

Its just more uk propaganda , while selling these fairy stories of the "special relationship" which boils down to the uk giving the yanks access to bits of whats left of the empire like the base on diego garcia and full backing of american foreign policy no matter what , and in return , the yanks support "britains" continued presence of the un security council  , while protecting uk interests across the globe militarily as the uk no longer has the means to do so.

Every now and again the mask slips from american presidents faces............obama interfering in the scot referendum , then interfering in brexit , and now biden interfering in northern ireland.

American interests come first and foremost , and if uk interests dont coincide , then tough , the yanks pull rank and call the shots.

You talk about biden appeasing ira terrorists , i seem to recall the same thing being said about trump as well. The republican party were extremely pro irish independence as well many years ago , and lets not forget history in that the yanks fought a war against you british for independence which they celebrate every year.

Video: Donald Trump attends Sinn Fein fundraiser amid anti-IRA terror protests in 1995

Donald Trump once attended a Sinn Fein fundraising dinner in the early days of the peace process when the republican party was wedded to the IRA.

Archive footage from 1995 shows the current leading Republican presidential candidate shake hands with Gerry Adams and wave to the assembled press and guests at a $200-a-head dinner in the Essex House Hotel in New York.

The Sinn Fein leader jokes about playing the "Trump card".

More than 500 guests attended the function organised by Friends of Sinn Fein, the party's US-based fundraising group.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/video-donald-trump-attends-sinn-fein-fundraiser-amid-anti-ira-terror-protests-in-1995-34272622.html

[Thomas]

Yeah the eu heavily involved in devolution ,Ireland having powerful friends and both involved in the gfa,but we both know this ain't  anything to do with with the noble cause of protecting peace or the rights of a minority it's all about brexit and punishing otherwise there'd be much more eu involvement in protecting others wouldn't there?

You can look at things from the "martyrs " point of view all day long cromwell , and play the victim in all this , but you  ( brexiters)were told from day one how brexit would cause major problems with northern ireland and ignored it with a dismissive wave.

Lets just cast our minds back to what your illustrious prime minisnter said....he said no uk pm could contemplate a border in the irish sea at a DUP conference to massive applause , then swiftly about turned and signed off the northern irish protocol , shafting unionism in the process.



You talk about "punishment" but what did you expect? That everyone was going to bow down and give you your way?

Did someone hold a gun to johnsons head or something when i wasnt looking? Were eu , or american soldiers in northern ireland enforcing the protocol?

Lie after lie has been spoken by the uk government and its minions since day one regarding brexit.

The uk government signed the GFA , it then signed the northern irish protocol , and despite telling us scottish brexit was a uk vote so the uk had to leave( remember stevlins constant bleating on the subject?) it then volte faced and agreed the northern irish remain vote "would" be respected , and northern ireland allowed to stay.

So when you talk about punishment , it seems to be punishment being dished out from your own government from what i can see .

[B-4]

Biden has to appease those who donated weapons and money to the IRA terrorists all those years ago, many of whom are in his party.  He relied on them during his campaign, whilst the New York Guardian hated Trump for being a bit of a anglophile (if you can believe that).

[cromwell]

I know what you are saying sampan , but brexit rested on the UK being an integrated unitary sovereign state , which as we know it isnt.

The Eu was heavily involved not just in devolution , but in the northern irish peace process , which meant for example  that a large percentage of uk citizens have the right and excercise that right to EU/Republic of ireland passports and citizen rights who live in northern ireland.

Without going further into the minutiae of the argument which we have done now for five years on this subject , the simple fact is its about symbolism , where we have one side who dont want the idea of any sort of border in their country ( Ireland) and the other the same with their country ( uk).

You cannot please both sides at the same time , and brexit , so one side or the other was always going to have the hump. Which is why i suggested a referendum to take northern ireland forward from the status quo dogs dinner that brexit has left in its wake.

Northen ireland "remaining " in the EU is a severe blow to the mindset of the staunch british nationalists. Yet again it reminds them of their ever decreasing power in the world today , where effectively the EU , with american backing and republic of ireland insistence , has annexed part of the territory of the yookay , and westminster has tried to put a brave face on it.

This isnt about what "britain" wants. Unlike scotland , the northern irish who voted to stay in the EU have powerfull friends to back up their arguments. Not just the EU fighting their case , but more especailly the USA , and we all know the uk will not go against the yanks.

So barry has suggested there is a "logical english solution " staring us in the face that those pesky luddites refuse to contemplate. Pretty much the bog standard argument  i have been hearing for the last five years from brexiters on this subject , and we await this logical solution acceptance and implementation.

Standard uk political tactics being played  here....kick the can into the long grass and  try to dour it out.

Yeah the eu heavily involved in devolution ,Ireland having powerful friends and both involved in the gfa,but we both know this ain't  anything to do with with the noble cause of protecting peace or the rights of a minority it's all about brexit and punishing otherwise there'd be much more eu involvement in protecting others wouldn't there?

[Sheepy]

Anyway, I guess Joe is desperately trying not to be a hypocrite, but wait until Macron the media and the EU start their nonsense, that will go out of the window faster than Omar can say Israel and the US ain't perfect.

[Thomas]

Well it seems pretty clear to me.
The border should be the closest International border to the RoI and NI border.
This border is the one between the RoI and the rest of the EU in the Bay of Biscay
Put it there, no land border in Ireland and no intrusive internal border within UK territory.
No Brainer!

I know what you are saying sampan , but brexit rested on the UK being an integrated unitary sovereign state , which as we know it isnt.

The Eu was heavily involved not just in devolution , but in the northern irish peace process , which meant for example  that a large percentage of uk citizens have the right and excercise that right to EU/Republic of ireland passports and citizen rights who live in northern ireland.

Without going further into the minutiae of the argument which we have done now for five years on this subject , the simple fact is its about symbolism , where we have one side who dont want the idea of any sort of border in their country ( Ireland) and the other the same with their country ( uk).

You cannot please both sides at the same time , and brexit , so one side or the other was always going to have the hump. Which is why i suggested a referendum to take northern ireland forward from the status quo dogs dinner that brexit has left in its wake.

Northen ireland "remaining " in the EU is a severe blow to the mindset of the staunch british nationalists. Yet again it reminds them of their ever decreasing power in the world today , where effectively the EU , with american backing and republic of ireland insistence , has annexed part of the territory of the yookay , and westminster has tried to put a brave face on it.

This isnt about what "britain" wants. Unlike scotland , the northern irish who voted to stay in the EU have powerfull friends to back up their arguments. Not just the EU fighting their case , but more especailly the USA , and we all know the uk will not go against the yanks.

So barry has suggested there is a "logical english solution " staring us in the face that those pesky luddites refuse to contemplate. Pretty much the bog standard argument  i have been hearing for the last five years from brexiters on this subject , and we await this logical solution acceptance and implementation.

Standard uk political tactics being played  here....kick the can into the long grass and  try to dour it out.

[Sampanviking]

Well it seems pretty clear to me.
The border should be the closest International border to the RoI and NI border.
This border is the one between the RoI and the rest of the EU in the Bay of Biscay
Put it there, no land border in Ireland and no intrusive internal border within UK territory.
No Brainer!