HMS Defender

[cromwell]

Lets see them then. Lets see the Aggressive Intrusions into British Territorial waters and Airspace. Remember the English Channel is an International Waterway and Warships can transit as long as they obey the rules of innocent passage. We incidentally did no such thing yesterday sailing fully tooled and armed and at Battle Stations. That is the very definition of a provocation.
You brought up history waffling on about Tatars as if it was remotely relevant.

Really? post #5

as the Crimea is very clearly Russian Territory, as even a cursory understanding of its people and history, equally clearly demonstrate

[Sampanviking]

Well, speaking from experience, if a Royal Navy Frigate were on station you knew there was a chance the target would be hit, as opposed to friendly vessels and aircraft


As I said, this is harassment of vessels into n international waters and it has to stop. We should extraordinarily rendition a couple of Putin's pals and have them disappear too, to send the message two can play at that game. He's been allow d to send his thugs to kill at will for too long.

What do you think the other side fire Cannon Balls?
Sorry John your living in a fantasy world.
The fact you bring up the failings of others re International Law and then wax lyrical about extraordinary rendition; speaks volumes.
Face it John we (The US Empire and Suzerains thereof such as the UK) are no longer the good guys and the rest of the world know it.

[papasmurf]

We incidentally did no such thing yesterday sailing fully tooled and armed and at Battle Stations.

What is your source for that please? (There was no sign at all of that from the reporting on board ship. If at action stations the guns would have been crewed, they weren't.)

[Sampanviking]

Right so originally you pointed out that historically it was Russian which I disputed so you then blart what about the ice age,you brought the history up not me and don't like being challenged.
BTW regarding your point about Russia not invading UK territorial waters or airspace they've done it several times,I'd post links but you'd only dismiss it.

Lets see them then. Lets see the Aggressive Intrusions into British Territorial waters and Airspace. Remember the English Channel is an International Waterway and Warships can transit as long as they obey the rules of innocent passage. We incidentally did no such thing yesterday sailing fully tooled and armed and at Battle Stations. That is the very definition of a provocation.
You brought up history waffling on about Tatars as if it was remotely relevant.

[johnofgwent]

Sorry John, but the world has changed and the days that Britain could just sail a Gunboat to a distant shore and terrify the natives is long, long gone.
My main worry in all this is that the US is simply using the UK as its dog, by which I mean that they are happy to send a UK ship that nearly has USN capability into peril to see if it can take the bullet.

Well, speaking from experience, if a Royal Navy Frigate were on station you knew there was a chance the target would be hit, as opposed to friendly vessels and aircraft


As I said, this is harassment of vessels into n international waters and it has to stop. We should extraordinarily rendition a couple of Putin's pals and have them disappear too, to send the message two can play at that game. He's been allow d to send his thugs to kill at will for too long.

[cromwell]

Ohhhh - What about Stalin?!! What the about the Ice Age?!! What about........
Disingenuous nonsense Cromwell. The Tatars were not indigenous in the manner of being Aboriginal, but simply one of a number of people that moved into the area and controlled it over the centuries and millennia.
You had the Scythians,   You had the Hellenist's, You had the Byzantines, The Tatars came with the Ottomans and then the Russian Empire Came along and I am sure I have missed other empires out of the list as well.
When we Invaded the Crimea in the 1850's were we fighting the Ukrainians? No we were fighting the Russian Empire, who had already been there for the best part of a century.
Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) gave the Russian territories of the Donbass and Crimea to the Ukraine in the 50's. These were only meant to be Internal Administrative boundaries of the Soviet Union and not International Borders. When the Ukraine was Cuckooed by the West, Russia took its people and territory back.
This is nothing to do with rosy eyed anything, its an acceptance of reality, something which I realise the West has less and less contact with as it has to twist and distort and dissemble to ever greater degrees in order to project its utterly warped narrative about the world and its own virtue within it.

Right so originally you pointed out that historically it was Russian which I disputed so you then blart what about the ice age,you brought the history up not me and don't like being challenged.
BTW regarding your point about Russia not invading UK territorial waters or airspace they've done it several times,I'd post links but you'd only dismiss it.

[Sampanviking]

HMS Duncan got the same reception in international waters, when a film crew were aboard.


You are being a bit disingenuous with your claims of ownership of the seas involved. In exactly the same way as the USA send capital military vessels into areas of the South China Sea that China wishes to steal from the world and claim its own, so the area Duncan was in some years ago and Defender was in now are actually recognised as international shipping lanes because no international body recognises the invasion and annexation by Russia of the land masses and adjacent seas.


Personally, as Putin sees no problem in unleashing nuclear toxins and biological warfare on our streets, maybe it it time to see if those who took over my old job of providing our Navy with teeth did it as well as I did. Maybe it is time to drown a few Russians in the interests of pointing out to Putin what he can, and cannot, get away with.

Sorry John, but the world has changed and the days that Britain could just sail a Gunboat to a distant shore and terrify the natives is long, long gone.
My main worry in all this is that the US is simply using the UK as its dog, by which I mean that they are happy to send a UK ship that nearly has USN capability into peril to see if it can take the bullet.

[Sampanviking]

A hissy fit? Ah I see so anyone who disagrees with you is having a hissy fit,listen comrade it is factual that millions of people were eradicated during Stalins tenure approx as many as were killed in WW2,

The tartars were the indigenous people of the Crimea and the last were shipped out post WW2 by Stalin accused of conspiring with the Nazis,also please point out where I said they identified as Ukranians.

Fact is you posted it being Russian,I disputed that,do you deny the Russification of many parts of the old Soviet Union partly by planting large populations and partly by wholesale exile or slaughter.

Your one eyed view of the west is apparent on here and rapture too regarding China and Russia.

Ohhhh - What about Stalin?!! What the about the Ice Age?!! What about........
Disingenuous nonsense Cromwell. The Tatars were not indigenous in the manner of being Aboriginal, but simply one of a number of people that moved into the area and controlled it over the centuries and millennia.
You had the Scythians,   You had the Hellenist's, You had the Byzantines, The Tatars came with the Ottomans and then the Russian Empire Came along and I am sure I have missed other empires out of the list as well.
When we Invaded the Crimea in the 1850's were we fighting the Ukrainians? No we were fighting the Russian Empire, who had already been there for the best part of a century.
Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) gave the Russian territories of the Donbass and Crimea to the Ukraine in the 50's. These were only meant to be Internal Administrative boundaries of the Soviet Union and not International Borders. When the Ukraine was Cuckooed by the West, Russia took its people and territory back.
This is nothing to do with rosy eyed anything, its an acceptance of reality, something which I realise the West has less and less contact with as it has to twist and distort and dissemble to ever greater degrees in order to project its utterly warped narrative about the world and its own virtue within it.

[johnofgwent]

I suspect it did receive warning fire and that warning bombs were dropped.
There is no doubt that the ship was in Russian Territorial Waters and very close to the main Russian Naval Base at Sevastopol.
A pointless exercise really that puts UK serviceman at great potential risk and all so a bunch of both trendy liberals and inbred Tufton Buftons in our Political Class can claim "we are standing up to Russia"

HMS Defender is part of the group being sent to the South China Seas. What can I say, at least the MOD had the good sense to lead the group with the Queen Elizabeth and not the "Prince of Wales".

HMS Duncan got the same reception in international waters, when a film crew were aboard.


You are being a bit disingenuous with your claims of ownership of the seas involved. In exactly the same way as the USA send capital military vessels into areas of the South China Sea that China wishes to steal from the world and claim its own, so the area Duncan was in some years ago and Defender was in now are actually recognised as international shipping lanes because no international body recognises the invasion and annexation by Russia of the land masses and adjacent seas.


Personally, as Putin sees no problem in unleashing nuclear toxins and biological warfare on our streets, maybe it it time to see if those who took over my old job of providing our Navy with teeth did it as well as I did. Maybe it is time to drown a few Russians in the interests of pointing out to Putin what he can, and cannot, get away with.

[papasmurf]

I don't think that nine miles off from the Crimean Coast and nine miles away from the Port of Sevastapol is International Waters in anyones book.

Take a look at a chart of the area.

[cromwell]

No thats just you having a hissy fit.
All of my previous post are facts. If you have to reason to dispute those facts, then lets read your reasoning and evidence.

A hissy fit? Ah I see so anyone who disagrees with you is having a hissy fit,listen comrade it is factual that millions of people were eradicated during Stalins tenure approx as many as were killed in WW2,

The tartars were the indigenous people of the Crimea and the last were shipped out post WW2 by Stalin accused of conspiring with the Nazis,also please point out where I said they identified as Ukranians.

Fact is you posted it being Russian,I disputed that,do you deny the Russification of many parts of the old Soviet Union partly by planting large populations and partly by wholesale exile or slaughter.

Your one eyed view of the west is apparent on here and rapture too regarding China and Russia.

[Nick]

I have never heard of a Russian ship coming into British Territorial waters and certainly not in the vicinity of a Major Royal Navy Dockyard.

I'm fairly sure a Russian plane flew down the west coast of the UK and then over the English Channel. Just as provocative.

[Sampanviking]

For bullshit read your rebuttal which is naught but soviet style propaganda.

No thats just you having a hissy fit.
All of my previous post are facts. If you have to reason to dispute those facts, then lets read your reasoning and evidence.

[cromwell]

Yeah I hear this trotted out usually when all the other BS has been rebutted and shown for what it is.
The Tatars became Russians when they were conquered by the Russian Empire centuries ago and Tatarstan is a component Republic of the Russian Federation just north of Volgograd and has Kazan for its Capital.
Tatarstan is in an area still regarded as Eastern Europe and not Siberia.
There are many other Tatar (Turkic) groups scattered throughout Southern Russia in numerous other republics.
The Tatars have never identified as Ukrainian, so your bringing them up simply reinforces the long Russian Identity of the Peninsular.

For bullshit read your rebuttal which is naught but soviet style propaganda.

[Sampanviking]

Yeah I hear this trotted out usually when all the other BS has been rebutted and shown for what it is.
The Tatars became Russians when they were conquered by the Russian Empire centuries ago and Tatarstan is a component Republic of the Russian Federation just north of Volgograd and has Kazan for its Capital.
Tatarstan is in an area still regarded as Eastern Europe and not Siberia.
There are many other Tatar (Turkic) groups scattered throughout Southern Russia in numerous other republics.
The Tatars have never identified as Ukrainian, so your bringing them up simply reinforces the long Russian Identity of the Peninsular.