HMS Defender

[cromwell]

Oh dear placing ships where they weren't
https://news.usni.org/2021/06/21/positions-of-two-nato-ships-were-falsified-near-russian-black-sea-naval-base

[Sampanviking]

Raw (or at least unembellished) footage by Ruptley from the Russian Coastguard ship. It shows that warning shots were indeed fired at HMS Defender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpi6PG-qdHg

[patman post]

Because it was bollocks.

Quite probably.
And the Matt Hancock story is now occupying people's minds...

[papasmurf]

Well this story has sunk out of the news faster than a torpedoed Battle Cruiser.

Because it was bollocks.

[Sampanviking]

Well this story has sunk out of the news faster than a torpedoed Battle Cruiser.

The most striking aspect that I notice? The total silence from our NATO allies. Absolutely no official statements of support from the US, from Germany from France, not even from Turkey.

Other commentators have noted that at a time when Major Western powers are trying to improve Russian ties, this will provocation will have been as welcome as a Bacon Sandwich at a Kosher wedding. Worth noting, that the US and others had planned their own Naval Incursions into Russian Waters as a response to the increased tensions in April. All cancelled the operations, once the diplomacy picked up. Guess Boris didn't get the memo!

[cromwell]

Have I got it wrong? I thought the whole point was that Russia are there illegally.

No T00ts you are not wrong at all.

[patman post]

Don't mention Turkey and Cyprus, Pat.

I wasn't around. But I read commentaries on the Turkish takeover of Northern Cyprus and, it's like I said, because there was not enough criticism to oust Turkey (and some sympathy for the Turkish Cypriots) Northern Cyprus is now a de facto state...

[Barry]

That's probably the crux — if enough nations support annexation (or don't speak out against it in a meaningful way), then the perpetrator reckons the land's theirs.   
It's a bit like Israel and the occupied territories...

Don't mention Turkey and Cyprus, Pat.

[Sampanviking]

Have I got it wrong? I thought the whole point was that Russia are there illegally.

No Toots they are not.
The Crimea and much of the surrounding area become part of the Russian Empire in 1783 under Catherine the Great. They immediately established a major Naval Base at Sevastopol. Russia's only real Warm Water Port, which has been there ever since.
During the Soviet Period, The Crimea and the greater Donbass Region was transferred for administration under the Ukraine.
Once the Western Sponsored Coup took place in 2014 and a violently anti Russian regime was installed in Kiev, Russia sent special forces and paramilitary police to secure the Peninsular and its vastly majority Ethnic Russian and Russian population.
Said population then voted in a referendum to return to Russia and Russia accepted the result and re-incorporated. Which is exactly what we rely on to retain sovereignty over such places as The Falklands or Gibraltar.

The West has cried foul as the main purpose of the whole coup was to evict Russia from the Naval Base at Sevastopol and we dont like the outcome, just like Remainers don't like the Brexit result.
It failed and the West is still whinging and whining about it.
It pointless and everyone should really move on.

[patman post]

That's probably the crux — if enough nations support annexation (or don't speak out against it in a meaningful way), then the perpetrator reckons the land's theirs.   
It's a bit like Israel and the occupied territories...

[T00ts]

Have I got it wrong? I thought the whole point was that Russia are there illegally.

[papasmurf]

By Contrast the Eastern Black Sea is a literal backwater and you need to cruise out of your way to get there.

Freight tonnage by sea not one of your strong points?

[Sampanviking]

Recent transit of the English Channel by Russian Navy ships:-

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/royal-navy-tracks-seven-russian-warships-through-english-channel

PUBLISHED APR 20, 2021 10:01 PM BY THE MARITIME EXECUTIVE


The British patrol ships HMS Tyne and Mersey have recently been called upon to monitor the presence of seven Russian Federation Navy vessels as they sailed through the Channel.

HMS Mersey met up with the Russian frigate Admiral Kasatonov, the support tug Nikolay Chiker and the tanker Vyazma off Ushant, France and stayed with them through the Channel and into the North Sea. Her monitoring mission was made more challenging by rough weather conditions, which meant the Russian ships took longer than usual to pass through as they took shelter before resuming their journey.

There are two big differences that cannot be ignored.
1) Geography - The English Channel is a major International Seaway for both military and Commercial Shipping. Ships coming out of the Baltic and heading for the North Atlantic have little option but to cruise through the Channel to get there. By Contrast the Eastern Black Sea is a literal backwater and you need to cruise out of your way to get there.
Further, the English Channel is mostly Territorial waters with little International Water in it and most of that in the West. There is no option to to transfer through Territorial waters using the protocols of Innocent Passage.
No such restraints exist in the Black Sea and there is plenty of perfectly navigable International Water south of the Crimea, which HMS Defender could very easily have used without sparking any incident.

2) Posture - The whole protocol of Innocent passage is predicated on respect of territorial possession. We now know from Johnson himself that this was not the case and that HMS Defender sailed through Russian Territorial Waters, because we do not recognise Russian Sovereignty and still recognise the waters as Ukrainian.
Cruising through Russian Territorial waters under that posture is reckless, it goes well beyond being an "Unfriendly Act" and is in the realm of the Hostile. It was very close to being An Act of War.
Maybe Russia was reluctant to react more given the beginnings of a thaw in relations with the US and EU powers and maybe is mindful of NATO on its doorstep.

If HMG decide to repeat such moves in the South China Sea, I suspect that the PLAN will operate with no such constraints. 

[cromwell]

Didn't realise the Russians were burning all the Jews, Gipsies, and queers.

They weren't then but their objectives were plain apart from that anyway.

[Barry]

An excerpt from Chamberlain 1938

Didn't realise the Russians were burning all the Jews, Gipsies, and queers.