Labour MP accepted donations from shamed property developer

[Thomas]

Can't argue with any of that. Certainly I can speak from experience of it on the inside that Labour is definitely split into two warrring factions, constantly seeing each other as the real enemy. My wing saw the other wing as little better than Tories. They saw us as even worse than the Tories. Being on the inside even locally all the constant plotting for position and advantage against the other lot all the time was draining.

I didnt support corbyn , and i said so many a time over the years , and why , but i have to admit i have never ever in my lifetime , going back to my earliest memories of politcs , seen  a party leader undermined by his own politicans as much as corbyn was.

Starmer was a key element of that as we all know ,and a key architect of labours destruction in 2019 with his adamant refusal to accept 60 % or so of labour constituencies voted for brexit , and we saw even recently in the north east by election in hartlepool the sheer madness of this in action where his inept tactics of putting in some pro european blairite into a leave seat backfired spectacularly and sent shockwaves through labour.

Labour seem incapabelof coming to grips with modern issues ,and even in scotland i pointed out time and again how london constantly undermined both the party and its membership over issues like independence.

The result speaks for itself.

I have reached the conclusion that my enemies in the party have seized back control on the backs of a lie to gullible members. And they are out to make sure they never lose control again and are clearly working to destroy the left in the party. This has led me to the conclusion that remaining in the party to fight to take back control is a lost cause.

i agree , and i said  the democracy thread to toots that the differing views of the electorate and politicians can no longer be contained within the two party system.

You need pr and more parties to encompass all the differing views , in your case a good left wing proper socialst party rather than all this trying to be all things to all men lark that is backfiring completely on the blairites.

The tories are creaking at the seams as well. Brexit saved the party from similar bitter infighting , but that seems to be breaking down recently the way johnson is carrying on.

In some places that might still be Labour.

i said to you the labour brand is tarnished , they have burnt too many bridges over the years and people have long memories. A new left wing party in an independent england might just be what you need , coupled with voting reform.

Its clear though things can't continue as they are. starmer isnt the whole problem , he is merely a symptom of the divide within labour.

We will see what develops as the years go by. But most of us who have left the party are in no way planning to become politically dormant

Nor should you become dormant. Change wont happen by itself , you need to work at it , but labour wont be the vehicle that delivers it.

[srb7677]

fully agree with pretty much everything you have said.

Its clear without going into brexit or scot indy , that the old two party system and the political thinking behind it no longer can keep the various political views contained within two parties.

The tories are more than two parties , as are labour , and at the moment with labour , and in the past its been tory , they are often ripping themselves to shreds.

How often did we say tony blairs biggest achievement  , often unspoken , was having the none of the above vote through the roof?

Boris johnson got elected on one thing and one thing only , getting brexit done. How many people support his policies? Very few i would wager , and even on here many of the more right wing older tories despise what he is doing to the tories.

The westminster archaic system isnt fit for purpose , and its a complete injustice to the english people to have to suffer this farce of democracy every election.

It s breaking down more and more every election , with a few slight reprives.

Can't argue with any of that. Certainly I can speak from experience of it on the inside that Labour is definitely split into two warrring factions, constantly seeing each other as the real enemy. My wing saw the other wing as little better than Tories. They saw us as even worse than the Tories. Being on the inside even locally all the constant plotting for position and advantage against the other lot all the time was draining.

I have reached the conclusion that my enemies in the party have seized back control on the backs of a lie to gullible members. And they are out to make sure they never lose control again and are clearly working to destroy the left in the party. This has led me to the conclusion that remaining in the party to fight to take back control is a lost cause. We on the left thus now have little choice in spite of the obstacle of FPTP but to build something new outside the party in open opposition to it. So I and my fellow comrades have done what you have been urging me to do for ages, because we have given up on our preferred option of fighting to take the party back. There are still comrades inside the party fighting for that and I wish them every success, but I think that will never be allowed to happen. We outside the party need some unifying figures at the head around whom the left can unite, but most such potential figures are still in the party for now. In the meantime, we have decided upon a program of voting for whomever the most progressively left wing candidate is locally. In some places that might still be Labour. After all, if I lived in Islington North I would have no problems voting for Corbyn. But in most places it will not be Labour. North of the border some of my comrades might even vote for your lot in seats where your candidate is the most progressive option.

This is not an idea I have come up with on my own but something that is being discussed and planned by the nationwide left via organisations like the Labour In Exile group. We will see what develops as the years go by. But most of us who have left the party are in no way planning to become politically dormant.

[Thomas]

Well Thomas, I actually totally agree. The system in the UK,whose remaining shackles you want free of, and which now only has unfettered power in England, is not fit for purpose. It is only semi-democratic, open to widespread abuse. Many MPs owe their positions more to their party than to the electorate. I think we should have PR for the entire UK, And now that - under a system far more proportional than at Westminster - there is a majority in the Scottish parlieament, voted in by the Scots, in favour of holding an independence referendum, Johnson and Starmer should not be doubling down on their contempt for democracy by trying to oppose that. They should cooperate with any such referendum, and the result of that referendum respocted.

fully agree with pretty much everything you have said.

Its clear without going into brexit or scot indy , that the old two party system and the political thinking behind it no longer can keep the various political views contained within two parties.

The tories are more than two parties , as are labour , and at the moment with labour , and in the past its been tory , they are often ripping themselves to shreds.

How often did we say tony blairs biggest achievement  , often unspoken , was having the none of the above vote through the roof?

Boris johnson got elected on one thing and one thing only , getting brexit done. How many people support his policies? Very few i would wager , and even on here many of the more right wing older tories despise what he is doing to the tories.

The westminster archaic system isnt fit for purpose , and its a complete injustice to the english people to have to suffer this farce of democracy every election.

It s breaking down more and more every election , with a few slight reprives.

[srb7677]

sure , i just pointed that out to toots on the other thread about voting reform , how it appears england and america , with what passes for democracy in both your countries and thier two party systems , are the ones most in peril in terms of trust in politics.
What im saying is there isnt a perfect system anywhere , but england and america seemto have major political problems that dont seem quite as bad in many other countries so maybe voting reform and true pr might be a step in the right direction to appease the very mistrust and apathy you talk about.

Well Thomas, I actually totally agree. The system in the UK,whose remaining shackles you want free of, and which now only has unfettered power in England, is not fit for purpose. It is only semi-democratic, open to widespread abuse. Many MPs owe their positions more to their party than to the electorate. I think we should have PR for the entire UK, And now that - under a system far more proportional than at Westminster - there is a majority in the Scottish parlieament, voted in by the Scots, in favour of holding an independence referendum, Johnson and Starmer should not be doubling down on their contempt for democracy by trying to oppose that. They should cooperate with any such referendum, and the result of that referendum respocted.

[Thomas]

Indeed, Thomas, no status quo ever lasts for ever. But faith in democracy itself is declining sharply both here and in the USA for sure. By here of course I should say I am not speaking about Scotland for the very simple reason that I have very little personal knowledge in regards to how much faith Scots have for their leaders and potential leaders. But down here in England there is widespread distrust and contempt for them all.

sure , i just pointed that out to toots on the other thread about voting reform , how it appears england and america , with what passes for democracy in both your countries and thier two party systems , are the ones most in peril in terms of trust in politics.

But if you are suggesting that democracy itself is simply part of a current consensus that is passing and taking democracy with it, and hinting - as you seem to be - that this is a good thing, what do you imagine replacing it that will be any better? I'm all ears.

Im not suggesting that. What im saying is there isnt a perfect system anywhere , but england and america seemto have major political problems that dont seem quite as bad in many other countries so maybe voting reform and true pr might be a step in the right direction to appease the very mistrust and apathy you talk about.

[srb7677]

Indeed, Thomas, no status quo ever lasts for ever. But faith in democracy itself is declining sharply both here and in the USA for sure. By here of course I should say I am not speaking about Scotland for the very simple reason that I have very little personal knowledge in regards to how much faith Scots have for their leaders and potential leaders. But down here in England there is widespread distrust and contempt for them all.

But if you are suggesting that democracy itself is simply part of a current consensus that is passing and taking democracy with it, and hinting - as you seem to be - that this is a good thing, what do you imagine replacing it that will be any better? I'm all ears.

[Thomas]

I fear a democracy in crisis - Trump was himself a symptom of that. Because I know of no alternative to democracy that wouldn't be so much worse.

How do you mean?

Isnt natural change and evolution always labelled a "crises" and those whom you dont like or things you dont agree with a "symptom" of that imagined crises?

Nothing lasts forever and maybe the old post world war two status quo of western dominance and things as they were are simply coming to an end.

Talking of the yookay , which is what im interested in rather than yankland and who they elect , i think a large part of "democracy  in crises"  , current fast pace of change politically , the ineptitude of your party , labour can all be traced back to the anti climax of tony blairs legacy from 97 onwards in the modern sense.

What i cant believe , and we have touched upon it before ,is that labours solution to the most hated man in modern uk politics is more of the same under starmer.

Its quite unbeleivable naivety and collosul misjudgement.

The labour party have to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror , and thier part in the worlds problems today(afghanistan) rather than drawing epitaphs on trumps political headstone.

[srb7677]

Well Steve there is a crisis looming not just for labour but democracy itself and the west and what it actually stands for.

People have lost confidence in the democratic system and the people running it,there are challenging times ahead ahead and I hope we're up for it......from a selfish point of view why should I care being an old git,but I should care and so should we all before we make some hasty decisions.

I fear a democracy in crisis - Trump was himself a symptom of that. Because I know of no alternative to democracy that wouldn't be so much worse.

But we all hear it all the time. From left to right there is this widespread, almost universal view that politicians of all parties are self-serving and corrupt lying bastards, not to be trusted, and always likely to shaft us in one way or another. Voter apathy is widespread, with vast millions disengaging from the voting process and seeing little point in it anymore. Our own electoral system serves only to reinforce this, with most votes not counting, most people living in seats so safe they know in advance who the winner will be, and where effective choices if you don't want to waste your vote are severely limited. And probably most people are voting on the basis of their choice being a lesser evil rather than for any positive reason. What this disenchantment amounts to is that people are losing faith in democracy itself. And that is the biggest danger of all.

Because in any strong democracy, the socialist loves socialism, the liberal loves liberalism, and the conservative loves conservatism, but they all love democracy itself more. Which is why they accept the outcome even when they lose. If faith in and love of democracy itself declines so that socialists love socialism more than democracy, conservatives love conservatism more than democracy, etc, we are in a crisis situation where democracy itself can be undermined or destroyed with public support to protect and bolster a particular ideology. You are then on the road to authoritarianism, with political opponents being silenced, and political opposition having to take place outside the law, usually involving arms.

In the final analysis, democracy itself can only hope to survive where the masses back it. Weimar Germany demonstrated that. When faith in politicians and the political process declines too far, democracy itself is under threat. We are heading into dangerous territory.

Because in an effective democracy not only

[cromwell]

Starmer - having lied to the membership to get elected, and too many allowed themselves to be duped, is predictably proving to be a disaster. He is allowing yesterday's man - now mostly discredited - Blair and Mandelson, to drip poison in his ear about his own party members.

They have now proscribed several left wing groups and made membership of or association with them just grounds for expulsion from the party. So people who were associated with such groups several years back are now being threatened with expulsion even though it was not against party rules at the time. Many such members are taking legal action in response, and the shit is going to hit the fan before long.

Starmer is an utter disaster for Labour who stand no chance under his leadership. And they will get what is coming to them at the ballot box. And it is what they will deserve.

Well Steve there is a crisis looming not just for labour but democracy itself and the west and what it actually stands for.

People have lost confidence in the democratic system and the people running it,there are challenging times ahead ahead and I hope we're up for it......from a selfish point of view why should I care being an old git,but I should care and so should we all before we make some hasty decisions.

[Sheepy]

Not in my mind it isn't. She is just another part of the problem.

Aye well, it keeps you away from the real problems like, why does the NHS have over 50% who are not even clinical staff? fecking hell get with the bloody program you Lefties are in some kind of dreamworld.

[Borchester]

Lisa Nandy stock seems to be rising!!

A nice middle class girl from a decent left wing family. And not inclined to take any nonsense from the SNP either, which has to be a plus.

[srb7677]

Lisa Nandy stock seems to be rising!!

Not in my mind it isn't. She is just another part of the problem.

[Nick]

Starmer - having lied to the membership to get elected, and too many allowed themselves to be duped, is predictably proving to be a disaster. He is allowing yesterday's man - now mostly discredited - Blair and Mandelson, to drip poison in his ear about his own party members.

They have now proscribed several left wing groups and made membership of or association with them just grounds for expulsion from the party. So people who were associated with such groups several years back are now being threatened with expulsion even though it was not against party rules at the time. Many such members are taking legal action in response, and the shit is going to hit the fan before long.

Starmer is an utter disaster for Labour who stand no chance under his leadership. And they will get what is coming to them at the ballot box. And it is what they will deserve.

Lisa Nandy stock seems to be rising!!

[srb7677]

Starmer - having lied to the membership to get elected, and too many allowed themselves to be duped, is predictably proving to be a disaster. He is allowing yesterday's man - now mostly discredited - Blair and Mandelson, to drip poison in his ear about his own party members.

They have now proscribed several left wing groups and made membership of or association with them just grounds for expulsion from the party. So people who were associated with such groups several years back are now being threatened with expulsion even though it was not against party rules at the time. Many such members are taking legal action in response, and the shit is going to hit the fan before long.

Starmer is an utter disaster for Labour who stand no chance under his leadership. And they will get what is coming to them at the ballot box. And it is what they will deserve.

[Borchester]

I was telling you I like reading peoples posts, I saw one the other day that said, you must be very confused about what a leftie is, it said I am a Harold Wison type of Leftie, he will be turning in his grave about what has happened at the Labour party.

True

The modern day Labour party is ridden with morality. Harold would not have put up with that sort of nonsense for a moment.

Today's left is so fucking dull.