political prisoners in the eu.

[Baron von Lotsov]

There is no such thing as the working class scot. That description is the politics of the seventies  , and long out of date.

The ones who empty the bins and dig the road up etc. Hard graft jobs where no thinking is required. A different name perhaps but same thing!!!

Scotlands economy is booming ,

I'm looking now.



0.5% GDP growth in the last quarter. Latest available for the entire nation of Blighty is 1.8%, so hardly a Rizzla paper between them.



Same picture over the years. Scotland is slightly above UK in GDP per capita but would be slightly below without the oil.



https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gdp-per-capita-the-importance-of-oil-and-are-scots-actually-better-off/">https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-e ... etter-off/">https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gdp-per-capita-the-importance-of-oil-and-are-scots-actually-better-off/



2% year is not bad in my book. Inflation is about the same so it is more flat-lining or going nowhere fast. Same for UK. Science and technology should create real GDP per capita growth, normally considered to be about 2% per hear. That's a a kind of long-term average of the past.

 and at its best with the economic levers , few as they are , that the snp have. You are entitled to your opinion of the snp and the wider scottish indy movement of course , but i dont recgonise your portrayal of the snp or the scottish government.

https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gdp-per-capita-the-importance-of-oil-and-are-scots-actually-better-off/">https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-e ... etter-off/">https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gdp-per-capita-the-importance-of-oil-and-are-scots-actually-better-off/

The economic argument is part of , but not the main reason for scottish indy.

Yes but get real. SNP are heavy duty socialists and socialism destroys economies. We have seen it the world over. Of course you could compare to the UK but its the same thing, they are socialist as well, and that includes the Tory Party, except the big difference is Labour admit to socialism where Tories just do it and do not talk about it much. They are screwing with what we are allowed to eat now. That's heavy duty socialism.

You need to go your own way , as do we.

Well good luck with that. I suppose the Americans felt the same way in their war of independence. You need a capitalist Scottish party really and truly, but capitalism does not sell any more.

[Thomas]

Alright, I understand you anyway. SNP offers independence so it gets your vote. However the mention of Castro was not just a random slur, but you see the thing was that in places like that he was a man of the people. The people wanted higher wages, free schools, free this and free the other. What the people in Cuba were not so smart with though was economics, so of course it all crashed out and it became horrifically poor. I mean so poor that it was killing people.

Not sure i agree with you about cuba.



I have actually been fortunate enough to visit cuba many many years ago , my wife and i went there in the late 90`s to a place called varadero , in the north of the island facing florida , and it was an experience of a lifetime.



They were among the loveliest people i have met on this earth , and the idea that the cubans are not so smart with economics just isnt true.



I think cubas modern history is beyond the scope of this thread and my limited time to talk about it , however i urge you to read up on it rather than dismissing them as brain dead communists.



From the bay of pigs till the fall of the soviet union the country functioned resonably well , however after the fall of the soviets , they have spent the last 30 years readjusting to the modern world , dropping much of the old dogmatic tripe of communism , and  encouraging business and tourism and i have nothing but the best wishes for the lovely people of cuba.

The mega problem with it is, those who represent it identify with the working class Scot. Now we know the man who empties your bins and so on also does not have a masters degree in economics, but he will vote for a party that he identifies with, i.e. the leaders are like one of his workmates. The idea is they have the same interests in what is being portrayed as a corrupt environment. It's driven by fear and fear leads to irrationality, so it crashes and burns. I'm just going by intuition here, so when i listen to the screeching tones of the SNP leaders, and I mean equally so, the Lib dem leaders and all others like it, they just come across as unbalanced, ill-educated, misguided and in general what I would describe as no bloody idea at all.

There is no such thing as the working class scot. That description is the politics of the seventies  , and long out of date.



Scotlands economy is booming , and at its best with the economic levers , few as they are , that the snp have. You are entitled to your opinion of the snp and the wider scottish indy movement of course , but i dont recgonise your portrayal of the snp or the scottish government.

If on the other hand I look in my history book and find a leader who was leader during a time when a country was experiencing "double digit growth" , unheard of in these parts i know, I see a man who is a genius. The genius would not get the popular vote in Scotland, nor indeed any other part of the UK. We have almost the same problem here in England.

The economic argument is part of , but not the main reason for scottish indy.



I have already told you i want scotland to be an independent country so we are in control , as best we may be of our own destiny  and can shape our own future to suit our needs.



If that means voting in a left right or centre government   , then so be it. The point is though whle we are shackled to your country , we get the government your country chooses for us , and constitutional issues like brexit that we didnt vote for.



If it was the other way around , i dont believe for a second the proud people of england would put up with being told what to do by a scottish government and parliament in edinburgh where 80 % of the politicians represent scottish seats , anymore than you are tolerating being part of the eu and told what to do by brussells.



You need to go your own way , as do we.

[Baron von Lotsov]

Why would you think that?



The SNP is a broad church with people from all walks of life and all political background united in the hope of gaining scottish indy. This castro and cuba description is nothing more than british newspaper propaganda and hysteria talking.



The whole point of scottish indy is for scotland to become a normal country like any other indy country , with normal political parties from the left right and centre slogging it out to become the government , instead of what we have at present parties based in , controlled from and funded in your country trying to keep us in your union.



How would you like french or german controlled and  funded parties standing for election in your country trying to keep you in the euro union?



The SNP get my vote for one thing , and one thing only , to achieve scottish indy. After scottish independence , i will then choose which scottish party to the left right or centre to support and further my  , my family and my countries interests.



Your post above insinuates the snp are some sort of communists , which is laughable when we have the same labour supporting media in scotland trying to insinuate the snp are the tartan tories. :roll:  ::



In short they are everything bad to everyone via the propaganda of the media to try and get scotland to stop voting them and back into your british box.

Alright, I understand you anyway. SNP offers independence so it gets your vote. However the mention of Castro was not just a random slur, but you see the thing was that in places like that he was a man of the people. The people wanted higher wages, free schools, free this and free the other. What the people in Cuba were not so smart with though was economics, so of course it all crashed out and it became horrifically poor. I mean so poor that it was killing people.



The mega problem with it is, those who represent it identify with the working class Scot. Now we know the man who empties your bins and so on also does not have a masters degree in economics, but he will vote for a party that he identifies with, i.e. the leaders are like one of his workmates. The idea is they have the same interests in what is being portrayed as a corrupt environment. It's driven by fear and fear leads to irrationality, so it crashes and burns. I'm just going by intuition here, so when i listen to the screeching tones of the SNP leaders, and I mean equally so, the Lib dem leaders and all others like it, they just come across as unbalanced, ill-educated, misguided and in general what I would describe as no bloody idea at all.



If on the other hand I look in my history book and find a leader who was leader during a time when a country was experiencing "double digit growth" , unheard of in these parts i know, I see a man who is a genius. The genius would not get the popular vote in Scotland, nor indeed any other part of the UK. We have almost the same problem here in England.

[Paulus de B]

What about accepting a letter form the LIb Undems asking them not to give the UK a deal? Worse still, what about guy verhofstadt speaking at the Lib Undem conference?

I hate having to appear to defend Verhofstadt, but he's a member of the European "Parliament" and led the group that the Bollocks to Democracy Party are part of.  He isn't a representative of the EU.  When a European Commissioner, on the other hand, sticks his oar in, that is a case of outside interference, twice as galling since it comes from people we pay.

[Thomas]

You break our hearts Tovarish - We dream of a parking a line of our SS 20's along the entire length of the Grampians!

 :fpigs:



Afraid the english already have the mere 200 warheads they rent from the yanks parked up at faslane sampan.Never mind mate , once they run out of cash and somewhere to station them , maybe we can do a deal? ::



Anyway , thought you comrades were on the same side as england?



https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/cameronputin-2.jpg">

[Sampanviking]

Why would you think that?



The SNP is a broad church with people from all walks of life and all political background united in the hope of gaining scottish indy. This castro and cuba description is nothing more than british newspaper propaganda and hysteria talking.



The whole point of scottish indy is for scotland to become a normal country like any other indy country , with normal political parties from the left right and centre slogging it out to become the government , instead of what we have at present parties based in , controlled from and funded in your country trying to keep us in your union.



How would you like french or german controlled and  funded parties standing for election in your country trying to keep you in the euro union?



The SNP get my vote for one thing , and one thing only , to achieve scottish indy. After scottish independence , i will then choose which scottish party to the left right or centre to support and further my  , my family and my countries interests.



Your post above insinuates the snp are some sort of communists , which is laughable when we have the same labour supporting media in scotland trying to insinuate the snp are the tartan tories. :roll:  ::



In short they are everything bad to everyone via the propaganda of the media to try and get scotland to stop voting them and back into your british box.

You break our hearts Tovarish - We dream of a parking a line of our SS 20's along the entire length of the Grampians!

[Thomas]

Maybe, but I do not like those reps in the SNP one bit. Their voice sounds like a strangled cat, and i have visions of them turning Scotland into somewhere like Cuba under Castro.

Why would you think that?



The SNP is a broad church with people from all walks of life and all political background united in the hope of gaining scottish indy. This castro and cuba description is nothing more than british newspaper propaganda and hysteria talking.



The whole point of scottish indy is for scotland to become a normal country like any other indy country , with normal political parties from the left right and centre slogging it out to become the government , instead of what we have at present parties based in , controlled from and funded in your country trying to keep us in your union.



How would you like french or german controlled and  funded parties standing for election in your country trying to keep you in the euro union?



The SNP get my vote for one thing , and one thing only , to achieve scottish indy. After scottish independence , i will then choose which scottish party to the left right or centre to support and further my  , my family and my countries interests.



Your post above insinuates the snp are some sort of communists , which is laughable when we have the same labour supporting media in scotland trying to insinuate the snp are the tartan tories. :roll:  ::



In short they are everything bad to everyone via the propaganda of the media to try and get scotland to stop voting them and back into your british box.

[Baron von Lotsov]

We will flourish , of that i have no doubt.

Maybe, but I do not like those reps in the SNP one bit. Their voice sounds like a strangled cat, and i have visions of them turning Scotland into somewhere like Cuba under Castro.

[Thomas]

Well, ACTUALLY I said three things



First, I said Scotland, like ANY third party country, which is what it WOULD have been, WOULD have been required to sign-up to the protocols in place for ANY applicant, which included a commitment to EVENTUAL adoption of the Euro. NOT immediately, but eventually.

You did , while forgetting to mention the fact the protocols have a big grey area attached to them which means all countries sign up to eventual commitment to adopt the euro , but as sweden consistently shows , there is an in built mechanism that allows any country as it stands forevermore to continually fail those steps needed to be taken to eventually join the euro.



As it stands now , considering the state of your pound , i personally wouldnt be adverse to joining the euro.

Secondly, I said that Scotland free of the Act of Union would be an independent sovereign state free at the point of departure to choose at that moment to use any currency it wished, including the British Pound, until the EU started in due course to apply pressure to force them Euro-ward. I pointed to several independent nation states that adopt the US dollar for their convenience. I pointed to the fact these independent nations were at the mercy of global currency movements and had no political input to the fiscal and other policies that set the worth of the dollar and thus the price they got for each kilo of bananas that were their main export.

you did , but as i said , the eu can apply all the pressure it watns , but if any country doesnt meet the criteria to adopt the euro that the eu has themselves set , then what can they do about a country deliberately failing the neccessary steps needed to adopt it?



We went over this in great detail , and your original insinuation was wrong then as it is wrong now.

And thirdly I said that there was absolutely no way on this earth a great Britain minus Scotland would stand as Scotland's bank of last resort.which was another thing Salmand said but avoided detailed discussion of.

Great britain is the geographical name of an island that scotland is part of. There is no country on this earth , unless you can prove otherwise , that is called great britain.



Scotland cannot physically be geographically apart from great britain , and england doesnt own the name.



You are going to look stupid to the world attempting to sell the english kingdom and its welsh appendage as great britian when you only control the bottom half of the island. Thats up to you though.



As for the bank of england being the lender of last resort , we again discussed this at great length  , and the reasons behind it.



We wouldnt have access to the ban k of england , and in return we walked away debt free. I said immediately after the referendum had most scots known that then , the outcome would have been massively in favour of independence. Keep your bank of england , please , and the debt that goes with it.

And finally I said if the residents of Scotland, having had these facts placed before them still wished to depart, I wished them well although it was my belief things would be far from smooth running, but it was entirely possible an independent Scotland might eventually flourish .....

We will flourish , of that i have no doubt.

[Barry]

Tsunami Democràtic are being closed down by the courts.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/19/inenglish/1571484159_002176.html">//https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/19/inenglish/1571484159_002176.html

The Catalan government leader has refused to condemn the violence. However, if does make you wonder what the people of Cataluña are left with, when the ballot box has failed them.

[Streetwalker]

https://news.sky.com/story/barcelona-dozens-injured-as-catalonia-independence-protests-intensify-11838332">https://news.sky.com/story/barcelona-do ... y-11838332">https://news.sky.com/story/barcelona-dozens-injured-as-catalonia-independence-protests-intensify-11838332  



   Anyway back in Europe the civil guard are to be deployed in Catalonia along with the threat of 6 years in prison for protesters .

[Baron von Lotsov]

Why can't you read the page? It's a free newspaper.  :roll:

I've already spoon fed you, I'm not going to any more. Political prisoners in the EU is the topic, but you are a master of going off topic!

I've found the video somewhere else and the only evidence of deaths from it is the sound of gunshot fire. Even Amnesty International refute the 10 000 claim, but it shows you for a sucker for the lies in our media. Why not just admit your error, or give us proof, which I know you can't do?



I see a lot of this going on. No one reviews the situation after it has been investigated, so they retain those initial lies in their head, like the 10 000 deaths lie. How many newspapers extra do you think they sold?

[Barry]

I can't read that page. Have you got a link to the footage itself, e.g. Youtube?



You see the people at Wikipedia think the 10 000 figure is false.

Why can't you read the page? It's a free newspaper.  :roll:

I've already spoon fed you, I'm not going to any more. Political prisoners in the EU is the topic, but you are a master of going off topic!

[Baron von Lotsov]

Kate Adie is still around and witnessed it. She almost died getting the footage out of China.

I can't read that page. Have you got a link to the footage itself, e.g. Youtube?



You see the people at Wikipedia think the 10 000 figure is false.

[Barry]

That's right, because there is no evidence of it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tiananmen-square-massacre-death-toll-secret-cable-british-ambassador-1989-alan-donald-a8126461.html">//https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tiananmen-square-massacre-death-toll-secret-cable-british-ambassador-1989-alan-donald-a8126461.html



Kate Adie is still around and witnessed it. She almost died getting the footage out of China.