political prisoners in the eu.

[DeppityDawg]

Will you lot go easy on all the tippy hat smilies. We've nearly run out and I've had to order some more because its so popular.

[Thomas]

I remember starting the old thread over the other side about Cataluña and all this starting. This will never ever go away. Of those that voted and the ballot boxes not stolen, I believe a majority want their independence. I know the Spanish system and I know their mindset a bit. When something happens it happens quick and it happens big, said my friend Mateo.

The constitution of the Kingdom of Spain is going to come under extreme pressure and new scrutiny. A constitution that impinges upon the civil rights of its citizens is doomed.

Expect more and greater disruption.

well said barry. If this forum had a like button , that would have received a like from me big time.!!! :hattip

[Barry]

All kicking off at Barcelona airport



https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1190641/barcelona-airport-protest-el-prat-riot-police-terminal-spain-news">https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/11 ... spain-news">https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1190641/barcelona-airport-protest-el-prat-riot-police-terminal-spain-news

I remember starting the old thread over the other side about Cataluña and all this starting. This will never ever go away. Of those that voted and the ballot boxes not stolen, I believe a majority want their independence. I know the Spanish system and I know their mindset a bit. When something happens it happens quick and it happens big, said my friend Mateo.

The constitution of the Kingdom of Spain is going to come under extreme pressure and new scrutiny. A constitution that impinges upon the civil rights of its citizens is doomed.

Expect more and greater disruption.

[Streetwalker]

All kicking off at Barcelona airport



https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1190641/barcelona-airport-protest-el-prat-riot-police-terminal-spain-news">https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/11 ... spain-news">https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1190641/barcelona-airport-protest-el-prat-riot-police-terminal-spain-news

[T00ts]

Isn't that classed as not interfering with domestic policies? It seems to be a bit of a selective policy.

apart from when manuel barrosso inteferrred with the scottish indy ref , that was different...... :roll:  ::

 :hattip

[Thomas]

Isn't that classed as not interfering with domestic policies? It seems to be a bit of a selective policy.

apart from when manuel barrosso inteferrred with the scottish indy ref , that was different...... :roll:  ::

[T00ts]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -sentences">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences







 





If europe, and that includes that mob at westminster , allow spain to get away with this while constantly bleating about the lack of democracy in russia and elsewhere , it will be a democratic outrage that will drag politicians and politics even lower than the gutter they currently inhabit.

They will sit back Thomas and do a three wise monkeys.

Isn't that classed as not interfering with domestic policies? It seems to be a bit of a selective policy.

[cromwell]

Catalan separatist leaders given lengthy prison sentences

[/b]



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -sentences">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences







 

@yanisvaroufakis

 38m38 minutes ago

More

I have no right to comment on Catalan independence. It is for the Catalans to decide. BUT, the rest of us must rise up against politicians being sentenced to long prison stretches in the heart of Europe for pursuing political agendas mandated by voters

[/b]



If europe, and that includes that mob at westminster , allow spain to get away with this while constantly bleating about the lack of democracy in russia and elsewhere , it will be a democratic outrage that will drag politicians and politics even lower than the gutter they currently inhabit.

They will sit back Thomas and do a three wise monkeys.

[Thomas]

Catalan separatist leaders given lengthy prison sentences

[/b]



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -sentences">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences







 

@yanisvaroufakis

 38m38 minutes ago

More

I have no right to comment on Catalan independence. It is for the Catalans to decide. BUT, the rest of us must rise up against politicians being sentenced to long prison stretches in the heart of Europe for pursuing political agendas mandated by voters

[/b]



If europe, and that includes that mob at westminster , allow spain to get away with this while constantly bleating about the lack of democracy in russia and elsewhere , it will be a democratic outrage that will drag politicians and politics even lower than the gutter they currently inhabit.

[Thomas]

Ara quan es coneguin les penes per als acusats d'organitzar l'1O, pensau en els anys de presó que corresponen a cada delicte:



Homicidi: 10-15 anys

Violació: 12-15

Dirigir organització terrorista: 8-15

Provocar una guerra: 8-15

Desaparició forçosa: 10-15

Segrestar un avió: 10-15

[/b]

Years in jail in Spain for



Homicide: 10-15 years

Rape: 12-15

Leading a terrorist association: 8-15

Provoking a war: 8-15

Forced disappearance: 10-15

Hijacking an airplane: 10-15



Organizing a referendum: 9-13 years

[/b]

[Thomas]

Latest update , former president of the catalan parliament has been given 11 years for allowing a debate on independence.



What a feckin joke!

MAJOR BREAKING: Former President of the Catalan Parliament Carme Forcadell has been sentenced to ELEVEN AND A HALF YEARS in prison for allowing a debate on independence.

[/b]

[Thomas]

The word 'No' there could have been replaced by 'Yes', since I can't see much disagreement.

The word no was me disagreeing this is an argument against a written constitution. I agree a poorly written one can be a handicap , but we shoudnt tar all countries who successfully operate with a written constitution the same way we do the spanish.

but they're stuck with it because it's in their constitution, and a written constitution exists on a different plane from ordinary acts of parliament.

Not really because this is where international law should step in theoretically. Every despotic regime in history has had written rules about how their country or empire should operate , that didnt make it any more acceptable to minorities within or international nations without.



The uk is a perfect example of how it treated the irish in northern ireland  over decades in a sectarian apartheid state , until international pressure without and the people within mounted enough of a challenge to bring about the GFA.

I can't see any way in which the dissolution of either the Angevin or the Roman empires could be characterised as England leaving them.

How england left wasnt the point. We can argue and discuss it if you like , but my point was all entities past and present bind countires and regions within their boundaries in some form or another , including using laws like spain.



This hasnt stopped the world evolving and old nations and empires dissappearing and new ones taking their place. Look at a map of europe , it differs quite a bit over the last century never mind going back hundreds of years.



Change happened wether constitutions allowed it or not.

Scotland's immense good fortune in having a stable border and being part of a country without a written constitution is much more useful to it than anything as slippery and unenforceable as 'international law'?

Scotland has had a stable border with england for 8 centuries , of which 500 years we were independent nations. That will continue after independence.



Theuk isnt a country as you know , and the very fact it doesnt have a written constitution allows your parliament to flaunt old rules and make up new ones as they see fit . If any parliament should have been bound by a constitution , it most definetly should have been yours.



Im only glad for small mercies that those who sold our country down the river three centuries ago werent daft enough to sign away scottish law. That simple fact has meant however low the scottish nation has fallen and the flame of independence has burned ,you have never ever been able to assimilate us  .Thats border has existed all those centuries as where scottish law ends and english law begins.....

than anything as slippery and unenforceable as 'international law'?

Oh i dont think international law is unenforceable. It can be difficult , but as well as international law helping bring about the GFA , it was international law that enforced the major then blair governments at westminster to give scotland devolution after the SDA appealed to the council of europe.



So its not all bad.

[Paulus de B]

Might it also be an argument against having a written constitution, or at least an argument for being a lot more careful when framing one?  Countries conscious of themselves as a union of pre-existing entities make a big thing of the union in their constitution, such that undermining it is effectively treason, which all legal codes see as a horrendous crime...

No not really. As i understand it , to give the spanish regions some form of autonomy ( in many ways more autonomy than we have in scotland)didnt franco ask in return that they had to agree to a constitution that spain was indivisible?



This was nothing new , every country and empire in history has said the same thing....



Further in the uk , we have an ancient parliamentary rule that says no past parliament can bind a future parliament , yet in spain we are told an act nearly half a century ago can bind the catalans forever. This is of course a nonsense...

The word 'No' there could have been replaced by 'Yes', since I can't see much disagreement.  That "an act nearly half a century ago can bind the Catalans forever" is a nonsense is pretty much self-evident, but they're stuck with it because it's in their constitution, and a written constitution exists on a different plane from ordinary acts of parliament.

...England would never have left the angevin or roman empire if larger entities were able to bind regions for eternity.

You wrote rather more authoritatively about Cromwellian history.  I can't see any way in which the dissolution of either the Angevin or the Roman empires could be characterised as England leaving them.

...The point i have made before that many people have argued is that national law internally in countries like spain cannot trump international law , that says all nations and regions have the right to self determination if a majority in those areas so wish...

Scotland's immense good fortune in having a stable border and being part of a country without a written constitution is much more useful to it than anything as slippery and unenforceable as 'international law'?

[Thomas]

on that subject of scottish indy....

Here are the Westminster voting intention numbers from the poll:



SNP 39% (+1)

Conservatives 21% (+3)

Labour 20% (+3)

Liberal Democrats 13% (n/c)

Brexit Party 5% (-4)

Greens 2% (n/c)



Seats projection: SNP 48, Conservatives 5, Liberal Democrats 5, Labour 1

[/b]



http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/10/historic-breakthrough-as-panelbase-poll.html#comment-form">http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/10 ... mment-form">http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/10/historic-breakthrough-as-panelbase-poll.html#comment-form

[Thomas]

,I reckon you will do one sooner or later and how that's handled in Westminster,

Hopefully cromwell , it certainly wont be down to lack of trying.