political prisoners in the eu.

[cromwell]

Ah well thomas my moniker I chose based on his view of parliament which if you strip it all down to basics said "you are a corrupt bunch,thieves and vagabonds and a waste of space so feck off now before I really lose my rag" and looking at the present incumbents he'd be right again.



Also in my home city a statue was erected to him which Victoria didn't take a liking to and she made all sorts of noise about it,that statue now resides in a local park,I have very mixed feelings toward the royals.

i know cromwell , but for whatever reason the point im making history is influencing your decison on what forum moniker to choose in the here and now.



Proving my point how history affects us every minute and every day of our lives in some way or the other , wether its good bad or indifferent.

Well it will be interesting to see how this all plays out,not just for the Catalans either,I reckon you will do one sooner or later and how that's handled in Westminster,NI too will go though I'm not sure about Wales.



What ever comes or goes it's been frustrating since 2016 and day 1 after the referendum,I'd like to see the Catalans given their choice too not because I want to see Spain broken up much like I never wanted to see the UK broken up but democracy and people's wishes need to be respected.

[Thomas]

Ah well thomas my moniker I chose based on his view of parliament which if you strip it all down to basics said "you are a corrupt bunch,thieves and vagabonds and a waste of space so feck off now before I really lose my rag" and looking at the present incumbents he'd be right again.



Also in my home city a statue was erected to him which Victoria didn't take a liking to and she made all sorts of noise about it,that statue now resides in a local park,I have very mixed feelings toward the royals.

i know cromwell , but for whatever reason the point im making history is influencing your decison on what forum moniker to choose in the here and now.



Proving my point how history affects us every minute and every day of our lives in some way or the other , wether its good bad or indifferent.

[Thomas]

Catalan indy trial: 'Serious irregularities' reported by probe

[/b]

A TEAM of international observers has said they found "serious irregularities" in the trial of Catalan independence leaders and said it "does not offer the necessary guarantees to describe it as just".



The International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH) and the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network (EuroMed Rights) yesterday published their report on the Spanish Supreme Court trial, claiming that police witnesses relied on "stereotyped testimonials".

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17958236.catalan-indy-trial-serious-irregularities-reported-probe/?ref=twtrec">https://www.thenational.scot/news/17958 ... ref=twtrec">https://www.thenational.scot/news/17958236.catalan-indy-trial-serious-irregularities-reported-probe/?ref=twtrec



I think you are right cromwell , the spanish just dont seem to have the same sort of "finesse" westminster are famous for in this sort of thing and are making themselves look like tits in the process.



To be fair though , westminster has had centuries more practice.

[cromwell]

Ah well thomas my moniker I chose based on his view of parliament which if you strip it all down to basics said "you are a corrupt bunch,thieves and vagabonds and a waste of space so feck off now before I really lose my rag" and looking at the present incumbents he'd be right again.



Also in my home city a statue was erected to him which Victoria didn't take a liking to and she made all sorts of noise about it,that statue now resides in a local park,I have very mixed feelings toward the royals.

[Thomas]

Might it also be an argument against having a written constitution, or at least an argument for being a lot more careful when framing one?  Countries conscious of themselves as a union of pre-existing entities make a big thing of the union in their constitution, such that undermining it is effectively treason, which all legal codes see as a horrendous crime.  The bloodiest war in America's history, we should remember, was fought to prevent the dissolution of the union.



Separately, restricting visiting times to a few hours a month is barbaric.

No not really. As i understand it , to give the spanish regions some form of autonomy ( in many ways more autonomy than we have in scotland)didnt franco ask in return that they had to agree to a constitution that spain was indivisible?



This was nothing new , every country and empire in history has said the same thing.



The point i have made before that many people have argued is that national law internally in countries like spain cannot trump international law , that says all nations and regions have the right to self determination if a majority in those areas so wish.



Further in the uk , we have an ancient parliamentary rule that says no past parliament can bind a future parliament , yet in spain we are told an act nearly half a century ago can bind the catalans forever. This is of course a nonsense.



England would never have left the angevin or roman empire if larger entities were able to bind regions for eternity.

[Thomas]

Germany  has a bad recent past and yet they seem to have got away with it, to the point where a lot of people are denying the Holocaust.

Sorry cassie i cant agree.



That is rubbish. The germans are more the other way .They are that cowed by the acts hitler and his henchmen carried out 70 years ago they are constantly running around apologising for it.

[Thomas]

I'm not ignoring the past or trying to whitewash anything,I have a great interest in history and believe there are lessons to be learnt from it.



Neither am I pointing and saying look there's another country behaving badly,the Catalan situation has been treated badly and sometime brutally and largely ignored by the so called democracies of the eu,isn't there a paralell here that our own referendum is being ignored and democracy suppressed on different levels and if you like in a more sophisticated way in that people aren't being imprisoned or brutalised?

ok cromwell , i was just picking you up on this

Yes I know what the issue is,I was being facetious that we dwell on the past which you can do feck all about instead of concentrating on the here and now.

Which to me sounded like you were trying to ignore history and telling people to concentrate on the here and now.



Obviously you have since qualified what you meant , and all i was suggesting was that this would be an absurd position to take because we all see ourselves and mould our views here and now because of history.



It would also be an absurd position for you to take when your very own forum moniker is the name of an english historical figure from 400 years ago , who not only is reviled historically in scotland and ireland for his atrocities carries out by his regime at places such as dundee and drogheda , but by certain segments of england for his behaviour in your country and the regicide enacted on the stewarts.

Some 362 years ago this month, the city was witness to one of the worst massacres ever committed on Scottish soil.



Across this prosperous and well-ordered city Monck's troops smashed into homes robbing, killing and raping. The plunder was exceptional and the murder without equal in Scotland's history. It has been stated that the massacre only ceased when Monck himself witnessed a terrified infant trying to cuddle against his slaughtered mother and ordered his soldiers to stop.

[/b]



https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2013/09/18/september-1-1651-the-day-a-fifth-of-dundees-population-were-massacred/">https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2013 ... massacred/">https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2013/09/18/september-1-1651-the-day-a-fifth-of-dundees-population-were-massacred/

Oliver Cromwell's war crimes, the Massacre of Drogheda in 1649

[/b]



https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/oliver-cromwells-massacre-of-drogheda-1649">https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hist ... gheda-1649">https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/oliver-cromwells-massacre-of-drogheda-1649



So to me cromwell , you break your own truism by using the moniker of an english historical despot as your forum name. This shows how history plays a part in all our lives on a daily basis for whatever reason and is one small example of what i am saying.

Neither am I pointing and saying look there's another country behaving badly,the Catalan situation has been treated badly and sometime brutally and largely ignored by the so called democracies of the eu,isn't there a paralell here that our own referendum is being ignored and democracy suppressed on different levels and if you like in a more sophisticated way in that people aren't being imprisoned or brutalised?

of course without a doubt. Wether or not the eu is colluding with remainer politicians , it is at the end of the day your own parliament that is denying you democracy.



The 2016 referendum and its aftermath will go down yet again in history as yet another episode in the anti democratic history of the so called "mother of all parliaments " and shining beacon of world wide democracy.



Unlike though 17th century dundee or drogheda , it will be seen a s you say a more sophisticated act of abuse which doesnt involve raping looting and murdering vast amounts of people , instead this time its being done by propaganda and devious political means on your own people.

[Paulus de B]

Might it also be an argument against having a written constitution, or at least an argument for being a lot more careful when framing one?  Countries conscious of themselves as a union of pre-existing entities make a big thing of the union in their constitution, such that undermining it is effectively treason, which all legal codes see as a horrendous crime.  The bloodiest war in America's history, we should remember, was fought to prevent the dissolution of the union.



Separately, restricting visiting times to a few hours a month is barbaric.

[Cassie]

Germany  has a bad recent past and yet they seem to have got away with it, to the point where a lot of people are denying the Holocaust.

[cromwell]

Yes I know what the issue is,I was being facetious that we dwell on the past which  you can do feck all about instead of concentrating on the here and now.

You cant do feck all about the past , but you cant ignore it either.



A country exists because it is the sum total of all its past history , the good the bad and the intolerable.



I have told you this before , you personally arent responsible for what england has done over history , but you cant wash history from your countries name because you find it uncomfortable.



Im not sure what englands past history though has to do with this......spain acting intolerably with the catalans doesnt absolve your country of your past history or any other country including scotland and our bad bits.



Im not arguing with you cromwell , but you cant keep popping up shouting oh look , another country is behaving badly  , so its no just us then as though that absolves your past.



You cant keep saying lets ignore history or try and whitewash it , and concentrate on here and now as though history didnt exist. We are where we are now  because of history



You wouldnt be in the eu if it wasnt for historical events , likewise me with your "uk " if it wasnt for historical events.

I'm not ignoring the past or trying to whitewash anything,I have a great interest in history and believe there are lessons to be learnt from it.



Neither am I pointing and saying look there's another country behaving badly,the Catalan situation has been treated badly and sometime brutally and largely ignored by the so called democracies of the eu,isn't there a paralell here that our own referendum is being ignored and democracy suppressed on different levels and if you like in a more sophisticated way in that people aren't being imprisoned or brutalised?

[cromwell]

Yes I know what the issue is,I was being facetious that we dwell on the past which  you can do feck all about instead of concentrating on the here and now.

You cant do feck all about the past , but you cant ignore it either.



A country exists because it is the sum total of all its past history , the good the bad and the intolerable.



I have told you this before , you personally arent responsible for what england has done over history , but you cant wash history from your countries name because you find it uncomfortable.



Im not sure what englands past history though has to do with this......spain acting intolerably with the catalans doesnt absolve your country of your past history or any other country including scotland and our bad bits.



Im not arguing with you cromwell , but you cant keep popping up shouting oh look , another country is behaving badly  , so its no just us then as though that absolves your past.



You cant keep saying lets ignore history or try and whitewash it , and concentrate on here and now as though history didnt exist. We are where we are now  because of history



You wouldnt be in the eu if it wasnt for historical events , likewise me with your "uk " if it wasnt for historical events.

I'm not ignoring the past or trying to whitewash anything,I have a great interest in history and believe there are lessons to be learnt from it.



Neither am I pointing and saying look there's another country behaving badly,the Catalan situation has been treated badly and sometime brutally and largely ignored by the so called democracies of the eu,isn't there a paralell here that our own referendum is being ignored and democracy suppressed on different levels and if you like in a more sophisticated way in that people aren't being imprisoned or brutalised?

[Thomas]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGv1DfHXkAAaSGE.jpg">



anyway back on subject , it will be interesting to see the eu reaction if these "political prisoners" in spain get handed down 16 year sentences.



Wonder what happened to our anglo spanish friend findeton? Be interesting to hear his excuses on the matter! ::

[Thomas]

Yes I know what the issue is,I was being facetious that we dwell on the past which  you can do feck all about instead of concentrating on the here and now.

You cant do feck all about the past , but you cant ignore it either.



A country exists because it is the sum total of all its past history , the good the bad and the intolerable.



I have told you this before , you personally arent responsible for what england has done over history , but you cant wash history from your countries name because you find it uncomfortable.



Im not sure what englands past history though has to do with this......spain acting intolerably with the catalans doesnt absolve your country of your past history or any other country including scotland and our bad bits.



Im not arguing with you cromwell , but you cant keep popping up shouting oh look , another country is behaving badly  , so its no just us then as though that absolves your past.



You cant keep saying lets ignore history or try and whitewash it , and concentrate on here and now as though history didnt exist. We are where we are now  because of history



You wouldnt be in the eu if it wasnt for historical events , likewise me with your "uk " if it wasnt for historical events.

[cromwell]

Well what we have here is people who will remind us what a set of barstewards we were in past centuries,Nelson should be removed from his column.......others removed too.



A prime minister should stand up and make a fulsome apology for our past wrongs,we should be made to feel ashamed for the actions of our forbears and indeed our priveleged existence now really hang our heads in shame.



Stuff like this ........not a dickie bird,still I expect someone will be along In a couple of hundred years to set it right.

You were a set of barstewards cromwell , no one denies it. The issue here is though not tarring pedro with the same brush .

Yes I know what the issue is,I was being facetious that we dwell on the past which  you can do feck all about instead of concentrating on the here and now.

[Thomas]

Well what we have here is people who will remind us what a set of barstewards we were in past centuries,Nelson should be removed from his column.......others removed too.



A prime minister should stand up and make a fulsome apology for our past wrongs,we should be made to feel ashamed for the actions of our forbears and indeed our priveleged existence now really hang our heads in shame.



Stuff like this ........not a dickie bird,still I expect someone will be along In a couple of hundred years to set it right.

You were a set of barstewards cromwell , no one denies it. The issue here is though not tarring pedro with the same brush .