Newborn dilemma.

[T00ts]

I didnt take any offence T00ts

That's a relief - thanks.

[cromwell]

I'm sorry - I didn't laugh at you I thought you were making a joke about the food and was laughing with you. Belief in God or not doesn't impact on friendships. A case in point is that my own kids are not sure if they believe or not. It doesn't impact on our relationships. We live in an increasingly secular country and too often those who do believe are silenced and I made the decision that I would stand up for my belief and try hard to live by them. You never know someone out there might be reading this thread and others and be tempted to look further into it. 

I didnt take any offence T00ts,and I believe you are sincere in your post and beliefs.......I just don't share your religious belief.

[T00ts]

We'll laugh all you like but God doesn't have laws,and yes they did make it up though as with a lot of them with good intent.

But some bloke saying "God had chat with me and here's your starter for ten" does not make them any different from all the other made up laws.

I'm sorry - I didn't laugh at you I thought you were making a joke about the food and was laughing with you. Belief in God or not doesn't impact on friendships. A case in point is that my own kids are not sure if they believe or not. It doesn't impact on our relationships. We live in an increasingly secular country and too often those who do believe are silenced and I made the decision that I would stand up for my belief and try hard to live by them. You never know someone out there might be reading this thread and others and be tempted to look further into it. 

[cromwell]

LOL!! Ok so pre Jesus they weren't already making it up? Someone must have got really sick eating both so they made it a rule. Actually what is it they say? Only eat pork when there is an R in the month, and shellfish is notorious. Good advice at the time I would have thought.

We'll laugh all you like but God doesn't have laws,and yes they did make it up though as with a lot of them with good intent.

But some bloke saying "God had chat with me and here's your starter for ten" does not make them any different from all the other made up laws.

[T00ts]

Well those laws told the plebs not to eat pork or shellfish and that predates  Christianity which ignore such laws.

LOL!! Ok so pre Jesus they weren't already making it up? Someone must have got really sick eating both so they made it a rule. Actually what is it they say? Only eat pork when there is an R in the month, and shellfish is notorious. Good advice at the time I would have thought.

[cromwell]

No cromwell there is a huge difference. People change their interpretation in order to live as they please in an effort to believe that the consequences won't apply to them. God's laws have been the one constant in this world.

Well those laws told the plebs not to eat pork or shellfish and that predates  Christianity which ignore such laws.

[T00ts]

Yes they do to suit a particular religion and usually to control the plebs.

No cromwell there is a huge difference. People change their interpretation in order to live as they please in an effort to believe that the consequences won't apply to them. God's laws have been the one constant in this world.

[cromwell]

How sad to have lost a child so young I am so sorry. I am certain that he would have gone straight to our Father in Heaven. I can see no logical outcome otherwise. We are all children of God so it makes sense that His love for them would prevail. There is a lovely story of a little girl who was drowning. She had got to the point of sinking down into the water before anyone reached her but she survived. Many months later she saw a painting of Jesus Christ and asked who the man in the picture was because she recognised him from the memory of a man holding her as she sank in the water. I believe it is a true story.

There is a vast difference from a description of being born in sin and being a sinner. Nowhere can I see a new born child being described as a sinner. Being born in sin could equally be born into sin which of course is right since once here the choices between good and evil are met for the first time. When it comes to age of accountability I believe that here it is 10 yrs isn't it?

Child baptism originated I think as you say because people worried where infants would go. Chinese whispers and theology to suit the masses. God doesn't change nor do His laws.

Yes they do to suit a particular religion and usually to control the plebs.

[T00ts]

OK. How many would you like?
https://www.openbible.info/topics/being_born_in_sin
We had a baby boy die the day he was born and I expect that he will be saved. I don't know how that works, but as you say, God will forgive and save whoever He likes.
He has, however, made it clear what we need to do as adults, to get that gift of salvation.

And I know I was being a bit naughty talking about 10 years olds, but you had moved the goalposts a tad from the OP being newborns.

How sad to have lost a child so young I am so sorry. I am certain that he would have gone straight to our Father in Heaven. I can see no logical outcome otherwise. We are all children of God so it makes sense that His love for them would prevail. There is a lovely story of a little girl who was drowning. She had got to the point of sinking down into the water before anyone reached her but she survived. Many months later she saw a painting of Jesus Christ and asked who the man in the picture was because she recognised him from the memory of a man holding her as she sank in the water. I believe it is a true story.

There is a vast difference from a description of being born in sin and being a sinner. Nowhere can I see a new born child being described as a sinner. Being born in sin could equally be born into sin which of course is right since once here the choices between good and evil are met for the first time. When it comes to age of accountability I believe that here it is 10 yrs isn't it?

Child baptism originated I think as you say because people worried where infants would go. Chinese whispers and theology to suit the masses. God doesn't change nor do His laws.

[Barry]

It would seem like an important matter to have clarity on. Especially for parents whose children die in their first few moments on earth, no?

I agree. Which is why the established church brought  in infant baptism, which they said would give the babies a guaranteed pass.
I don't actually have such clarity, nor do I trust the established church to be able to do anything to convince God to do anything that he does not want to do.
From Jesus' words, he wanted to accept children into the Kingdom. That's probably a huge indicator.

[Nalaar]

I don't know the answer to that. I do know that in Matthew 19: 13-14 Jesus said:

Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

So interpret that how you wish.

It would seem like an important matter to have clarity on. Especially for parents whose children die in their first few moments on earth, no?

[Barry]

Romans 3:23 I have said before that we cannot take verses out of context.

OK. How many would you like?
https://www.openbible.info/topics/being_born_in_sin
We had a baby boy die the day he was born and I expect that he will be saved. I don't know how that works, but as you say, God will forgive and save whoever He likes.
He has, however, made it clear what we need to do as adults, to get that gift of salvation.

And I know I was being a bit naughty talking about 10 years olds, but you had moved the goalposts a tad from the OP being newborns.

[T00ts]

Would these be eligible for a T00ts bypass?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
They were only 10, and children, or do you have a different age limit in mind?
I prefer my own estimation, which is that I don't know.

The Apostle Paul said, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (Romans 3:23)

Oh Barry! You know that God will forgive who he decides to forgive. We are not in charge and we do not know their hearts. God does - my guess is that these boys will need at some point to repent big time and I would imagine that they knew what they were doing was wrong, they were old enough to know the difference. Naalar's OP referred to newborns.

Romans 3:23 I have said before that we cannot take verses out of context. You have to take at least the whole chapter. Paul addressed problems as they came up. Christianity and the Church were growing fast and like Chinese whispers the Gospel was getting misinterpreted. As it still does. You have to remember that they had grown up with Moses laws and Jesus changed all that. There was discussion at this time that Gentiles could not be brought into the Church, only Jews would be worthy enough. Paul's point was that no one is sinless when compared to God who is perfect therefore the Gospel was available to all. He wasn't referring to 'original sin' or babies.

[Barry]

I am convinced that a child that dies by-passes all the normal processes that you and I will have to experience in this life and beyond. They die sinless and therefore do not have the chance to 'prove' themselves.

Would these be eligible for a T00ts bypass?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
They were only 10, and children, or do you have a different age limit in mind?
I prefer my own estimation, which is that I don't know.

The Apostle Paul said, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (Romans 3:23)

[Barry]

Well I've always said on this subject Christianity has laid down some basic tenets of how to treat others.

Doesn't it perhaps occur some people decided to lay down those basic tenets and tried to assure they be followed by appealing to the plebs fear and superstition themselves secure in the knowledge here is no God but it surely would make their aims easier to attain?

Yes it occurred to many, which is why I despise the organised church, such as the C of E who have twisted the gospel into a "do as we say in our tradition" exercise. It won't wash for anyone who studies the scriptures for themselves.