Transgender

[Benson]

If I'm allowed to put my Two Penn'orth in. I don't set out to offend, i keep out of this transgender subject, bar for one view; I hope modern science can one day develop an oral or injection cure to align people's brains with the contents of their underwear. Nothing more, nothing less.



There are two sexes and gender is just a play on words.

[johnofgwent]

In all this fun and frolic I forgot something my daughter told me...



About a decade and a quarter ago she had this thing for a bloke she met in west wales where we had a caravan. It fizzled out. But a year or two back she had a really wierd arsebook message.  Turns out this bloke has decided to become a woman. Not sure if pruning shears had been called into play at that time, but they (and I really DO have a problem referring to them by the gender pronoun of what they were at birth, which they clearly are not, or wish not to be, or the pronoun of what they aspire to be, since they can never achieve it) hence my use of "it" ) were trying to ask her for advice oh hair styling.



If you were even remotely familiar with my eldest you'd burst out laughing now as she has about as much idea about hairstyling as a monkey puzzle tree

[Borchester]

Sorry it's such a late stage, but thought I would jump in on this conversation. I am pretty tolerant when it comes to gay people, as long as they don't shove it down my throat (metaphorically speaking of course), and find quite men that dress up as women very amusing, but get really annoyed when it comes to sex changes. Firstly, it costs the tax payer a fortune, and secondly, most of them look pretty stupid. The suicide rate after the tax payer has spent a fortune ion them is massive. I wanted to be 6' 3" but ended up 5' 7", but I don't expect the tax payer to fund a leg operation. My message is put up with it, and get on with it.

My friend's girlfriend's daughter/son/whatever is undergoing a sex change. She was a pain in the arse before, will be a pain in the arse afterwards, has spent her life on the dole, does not give a wet fart in a high wind for anyone other than herself and is a total waste of space.



And none of that matters. The first requirement of any civilised society is the protection of its women, children and lame and halt. They are under no obligation to be in any way virtuous. Indeed, if folk were virtuous they probably would not have acquired the various afflictions that made them sick in the first place.



My friend's girlfriend's daughter/son/whatever is more vulnerable than most because of the medication she is on, so she has decided to self isolate. I hope that her sex change is successful and she turns into a man so that I can kick him in his plastic balls. But first I will wait until she is better, because that is how a successful society works.

[Wiggles]

Sorry it's such a late stage, but thought I would jump in on this conversation. I am pretty tolerant when it comes to gay people, as long as they don't shove it down my throat (metaphorically speaking of course), and find quite men that dress up as women very amusing, but get really annoyed when it comes to sex changes. Firstly, it costs the tax payer a fortune, and secondly, most of them look pretty stupid. The suicide rate after the tax payer has spent a fortune ion them is massive. I wanted to be 6' 3" but ended up 5' 7", but I don't expect the tax payer to fund a leg operation. My message is put up with it, and get on with it.

[johnofgwent]

As a deeply religious believer I cannot accept anything other than 2 genders. Can I explain the feelings of those who take on a trans persona? No and as I believe in free will then I cannot condemn them for their choices. What does upset me is those who determine what I should accept, regardless of my firmly held beliefs. If I am prepared to honour other's free will why should mine be undermined?

As a former medical biochemist I have to say that with the exception of a vanishingly small proportion of very unfortunate individuals, a human comes into this world as one of two quite distinct sexes.



I choose to reserve my feelings of sympathy for that tiny proportion of the human race, one of whom I knew online on a former debate forum, and another I briefly worked with  who come into this world not so well defined ...



Frankly  the chap I worked with, and I use that term in recognition of the sex he chose to be as a result of his physical circumstance of birth, would have little beyond contempt for the individual who was reported in the BBC news to be suing the NHS for giving them the gender reassignment they demanded 'too easily'.....

[johnofgwent]

Do men have concerns about transgender men in say changing room, toilets etc? Or is it only a problem for women? Why does it seem that women have to 'make space' so much more often than men?

Frankly,  I was far more concerned at the time the vicar was spending in the mens changing room at the gym. I found another one.

[Barry]

We've had some odd stuff about transgender lately. The mayor of London tweeted only yesterday:

https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/1229074066369327107">//https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/1229074066369327107



Trans women are women.

Trans men are men.

Non-binary people are non-binary.

All gender identities are valid.

That might be his opinion, but I think it is lies.



Then we have Rebecca Long-Bailey saying she would make it illegal to exclude trans women (They were/are men) from a women's refuge.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 37911.html">https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/long-bailey-trans-women-refuges-law-a9337911.html[/url]



Are we living in a post-truth fantasy society, where the truth tellers are being taken to court?

[johnofgwent]

Do men have concerns about transgender men in say changing room, toilets etc? Or is it only a problem for women? Why does it seem that women have to 'make space' so much more often than men?

Good question.



I wouldn't care.



If confronted, I might burst out laughing, which some may feel would be unkind, but like I said, the ex-bloke (I had no idea how far down the road he had gone) who wanted to beca woman was the most butt ugly woman I've ever seen, and I've  seen some right dogs, but also, I've  seen and auditioned alongside panto dames, and seen a couple of "female impersonators" (and here I mean blokes who impersonate as an act, not a lifestyle choice) who carry it off very well.



I dont know of any women who identify as men who wanted to use the gents where I worked so I have no real case evidence to go on.

[Barry]

Do men have concerns about transgender men in say changing room, toilets etc? Or is it only a problem for women? Why does it seem that women have to 'make space' so much more often than men?

I've never actually seen a trans man (that's a woman pretending) in a man's toilet.

However, my wife once managed to find her way into the entrance of the gents in a motorway service area and was politely told, "This is the gents, love!". On one occasion I managed to find myself in the ladies changing room at Matalan -  :oops:

Matalan have since made their changing rooms unisex, but I do wonder if someone might take umbridge at being told they are in the wrong toilets.

[T00ts]

Do men have concerns about transgender men in say changing room, toilets etc? Or is it only a problem for women? Why does it seem that women have to 'make space' so much more often than men?

[Barry]

Yes, as said in that thread, women (and here i use that to mean real women, those born  female) are being told to budge up and put up with men who identify as women being counted among them......



Its the same as at martlesham where HR were required to canvass allbthe women on site to collect their consent to the bloke I referred to earlier using their bogs ...



Totally bloody insane

And here is more insanity:

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-man-gives-birth-after-using-female-sperm-donor-11897122">//https://news.sky.com/story/trans-man-gives-birth-after-using-female-sperm-donor-11897122

What the heck, seriously?

[johnofgwent]

This thread is worth a read.

The people who have respect for the truth are speaking out.

https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1210517046246739969">//https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1210517046246739969

Maya Forstater is becoming the champion of common sense in this area.

Yes, as said in that thread, women (and here i use that to mean real women, those born  female) are being told to budge up and put up with men who identify as women being counted among them......



Its the same as at martlesham where HR were required to canvass allbthe women on site to collect their consent to the bloke I referred to earlier using their bogs ...



Totally bloody insane

[Barry]

This thread is worth a read.

The people who have respect for the truth are speaking out.

https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1210517046246739969">//https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1210517046246739969

Maya Forstater is becoming the champion of common sense in this area.

[johnofgwent]

Describing transexuals as being 'mentally ill' .....

Well *I* think they are not right in the head and I am not afraid to say so. They themselves admit their mind is not happy with the body it has been put in. That is all the proof I need that the balance of their mind is disturbed. what YOU need to worry about is that Harriet Harman publicly stated that anyone with that inability to deal with the hand that life has dealt them is more suited to work on nuclear weapons launch systems than happily married family men. Just stop and think about that a minute ...



Now as to advocating the various "cures" you list, well, I don't.



I do not think there is a "cure" for their condition any more than there is a "cure" for any of the debilitating diseases that impair the ability of many people on this planet. However, just as I feel the wheelchair bound have an active, positive contribution to make to the world of work and society, so I feel that those afflicted by this particular abnormality of the mind are able to make active, positive contributions.



However, should I find myself following the same path to exiting this mortal existence that my father trod, prostate cancer, the first drag queen that tries to "examine" me is going to find out the hard way JUST how quickly I can perform a tracheotomy, nephrectomy and a few other ectomies as well.



When Moira was in the maternity ward the first time, she thought the staff knew what they were doing. Her first question to the midwife was "how many babies have you delivered"



Her second visit to that block was not for a live delivery, and her "midwife" was actually a bloke, and strangely he looked the spitting image of the actor who plays Charlie Fairhead in casualty. Mind you, the consultant surgeon looked like Hugh Grant...



But her third visit to that block and this time to the newly renovated maternity unit was after four years of rearing a toddler.



This time, her first question to the midwife was "how many children do you have". The answer "one, eighteen months old" seemed to strike a chord...

[Baron von Lotsov]

It does seem that several people in this thread really do get the point that no one can change their biological sex. Some say they are assigned gender at birth, but in fact, they are assigned their sex, either XX or XY at conception. (As usual, abnormalities excepted).

Only Ciaphas seems to object to this.

Being unable to change sex is a scientific fact. All the pretence that trans people want to do is fine, they can do what they want.

I would like the people who demand respect for their beliefs to demand the same respect for everyone else's, especially the ones based in scientific fact.

Like the DSS doctor, I have no problem calling a person by their chosen name. It's no business of mine if someone has a "boy named Sue".

However, it is business of mine if someone expects me to pass off a forgery as the genuine article.

Yep, I've been spending some time looking at two particular genetic abnormalities. The first is where tissue is unaffected by the hormones like oestrogen and testosterone. They are chemical messages, and so the organs end up malforming. The prevalence of this condition is 5/100 000.



The second one is Turner's syndrome where the chromosomes in women are faulty and this ends up as them looking butch, e.g. with a fat neck and odd ears etc. This occurs between one in 2000 and one in 10 000 of cases birth and worldwide statistics say 90% are aborted, so the quoted frequency is /10.



Neither conditions are affected by the environment as far as science knows, and are solely caused by genes, which are inherited.



The case for gender <> sex could be made in these cases, especially in the second. They will be affected psychologically as well as physically. So this is what we know in science. Legally it becomes a nightmare and in looking through it seems that the ECHR rights are the cause. It's all explained in the case I linked to, but it gets bleedin' complicated. If we didn't have all of the case law we have, the obvious thing to do is class them as disabled. I mean these are medical conditions, and if we start to go down that road we will end up in the loony bin if everyone with a medical condition has to be treated as a fundamentally different person in law, bearing in mind law is very gender specific all the way through. The judge appears to have made a sound judgment, but only because of what he has to go by, namely things like the equality acts of 2007 and 2010 etc.