Transgender

[cromwell]

Until some day in the distant future when a man might genuinely be able to transition to being a real woman (or vice-versa), transgender involves a degree of pretence by the individual involved, which everyone else is then expected to go along with.  I can fully understand that some people feel they are born into the wrong gender and feel they have the mind, soul or whatever of the opposite gender.  But they can't, as yet, become that gender, only a superficial replica at best.  



People who really feel they're born the wrong gender and suffer mentally because of it deserve compassion and understanding.  If they really feel they need to live as the opposite gender then they should be accepted as transgender - it's that final step to accepting them as really of the opposite gender that's more difficult.



This is not the same issue as if people are gay.  Gay people are attracted to others of the same gender - that's a fact, if they're 'out' and open about it, there's no pretence involved.



Don't we all face this 'wrong body' syndrome to some extent as we get older and feel like a young person trapped in an old person's body?

 :thup:  :thup:

[DeppityDawg]

It does seem that several people in this thread really do get the point that no one can change their biological sex. Some say they are assigned gender at birth, but in fact, they are assigned their sex, either XX or XY at conception. (As usual, abnormalities excepted).

Only Ciaphas seems to object to this.

Being unable to change sex is a scientific fact. All the pretence that trans people want to do is fine, they can do what they want.

I would like the people who demand respect for their beliefs to demand the same respect for everyone else's, especially the ones based in scientific fact.

Like the DSS doctor, I have no problem calling a person by their chosen name. It's no business of mine if someone has a "boy named Sue".

However, it is business of mine if someone expects me to pass off a forgery as the genuine article.

I'm sure we've had this conversation before. Liberals are not your friend. Especially not when you don't agree with them. You'll be labelled with all the "ists" and "isms" you can think of, and a few you haven't. As a man of beliefs, you know that already though.



"Liberal" used to mean tolerant. Its become something completely different now. Its not about freedom of thought or expression anymore. Its about agreeing with everything you are told, or suffer the consequences. Trial by peers and social media for not agreeing with whatever the latest victim group orthodoxy says. Luckily for you, you aren't a famous person (...well...except on here), or you'd have shut your mouth a long time ago.

[Barry]

It does seem that several people in this thread really do get the point that no one can change their biological sex. Some say they are assigned gender at birth, but in fact, they are assigned their sex, either XX or XY at conception. (As usual, abnormalities excepted).

Only Ciaphas seems to object to this.

Being unable to change sex is a scientific fact. All the pretence that trans people want to do is fine, they can do what they want.

I would like the people who demand respect for their beliefs to demand the same respect for everyone else's, especially the ones based in scientific fact.

Like the DSS doctor, I have no problem calling a person by their chosen name. It's no business of mine if someone has a "boy named Sue".

However, it is business of mine if someone expects me to pass off a forgery as the genuine article.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I've found some law on this:

Existing case law on religion or belief



The EAT decision in Grainger plc and others v Nicholson [2009] was decided before the EqA came into force but remains good law. It gave guidance on what amounts to a philosophical belief for the purposes of the EqA. The belief must be genuinely held, must have a similar status or cogency to a religious belief and must be more than an opinion or viewpoint. Support of a political party cannot, itself, amount to a philosophical belief but belief in a political philosophy might qualify.

https://www.stephens-scown.co.uk/uncategorised/political-beliefs-at-work-protected-by-the-equality-act/">https://www.stephens-scown.co.uk/uncate ... ality-act/">https://www.stephens-scown.co.uk/uncategorised/political-beliefs-at-work-protected-by-the-equality-act/



It looks like the philosopher's get out of jail card. They never had it so good in the past you know:

In 399 BC, Socrates went on trial[85] and was subsequently found guilty of both corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens and of impiety (asebeia,[86] "not believing in the gods of the state"),[87] and as a punishment sentenced to death, caused by the drinking of a mixture containing poison hemlock.[88][89][90][91]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates





Cool, I have found a copy of the actual judgment.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/12P9zf82TicPs2cCxlTnm0TrNFDD8Gaz5/view">https://drive.google.com/file/d/12P9zf8 ... 8Gaz5/view">https://drive.google.com/file/d/12P9zf82TicPs2cCxlTnm0TrNFDD8Gaz5/view

The Claimant contends that her gender critical views are a philosophical belief

and that she has been subject to direct discrimination because of them; or has

suffered indirect sex discrimination as such view are more likely to be held by

women than men.

Hmm, well you can see where this is going. Her belief is not philosophical but scientific, and if that were a bit of a long shot, the second claim is way out. She's asking for the judge to agree women have a catch-all right here in any case where more women believe it than men!



There's another case of this tranbollox here:

Dr Mackereth was a contract worker for employment agency Advanced Personnel Management at DWP's assessment centre in Birmingham.



Upon beginning his role in May 2018, he attended an induction session in which another worker asked how assessors should refer to transgender claimants. The lead physician said it was DWP's policy that transgender individuals would be referred to by their preferred name, gender pronoun and title.



Dr Mackereth told the physician that he did not have an issue with using whatever first name the service user wished to use, but as a Christian he did have an issue using pronouns inconsistent with the person's birth gender.



The tribunal heard that a few days later he was called out of work for an urgent meeting with APM's contract manager to ask him about his beliefs in relation to the use of pronouns. He claimed the meeting culminated in being asked: "if you have a man six feet tall with a beard, who says he wants to be addressed as 'she' and 'Mrs'; would you do that?". He said he would not be able to do so.



He claimed he was then told DWP would not allow him to work directly with clients if he did not agree to use claimants' chosen pronouns. As he did not have enough experience to work solely with case notes rather than attend face-to-face meetings, this suggestion meant he was likely to lose his job.



The following day Dr Mackereth left work early because he felt too upset and distracted to carry out his work properly. However, he claimed he was suspended, which was denied by DWP and APM.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/christian-doctor-transgender-pronoun-employment-tribunal/">https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/chris ... -tribunal/">https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/christian-doctor-transgender-pronoun-employment-tribunal/



Poor chap.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I've just looked her up.

an employment tribunal after her opinions were ruled "absolutist"

Maya Forstater's view of sex 'not worthy of respect in democratic society',

People thought I was joking about the cults in my area for years. It's the same thing, where the body of opinion completely loses the plot.



It can happen to judges as well. She had better get her app in for the Upper Tribunal.



JK Rowling has stuck up for her. Now she's "under fire" as well. The biggest losers in all of this are those who have lost their minds, and at least Maya Forstater can console herself by thinking well at least I've still got my sanity.

edit

However I've just noticed this as well:

I am also a mother and a feminist, and I think that sexist stereotypes about women and girls, and about men and boys are damaging for children and adults.  In 2012 I was one of the co-founders of the campaign "Let Toys Be Toys" to push retailers to stop using sexist stereotypes in marketing toys.

So she's been screwed up in the feminist cult instead.



https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost-job-speaking-out/">https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost- ... aking-out/">https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost-job-speaking-out/



There was me thinking she still had her own mind.

JK Rowling been accused of being a TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminist)

-Gay Times

[Barry]

https://news.sky.com/story/jk-rowling-harry-potter-author-backs-woman-sacked-over-transgender-comments-11890772">//https://news.sky.com/story/jk-rowling-harry-potter-author-backs-woman-sacked-over-transgender-comments-11890772

Anyone who has an opinion based on objective reality is being closed down.

Maya Forstater has lost her job over this nonsense.

[T00ts]

Until some day in the distant future when a man might genuinely be able to transition to being a real woman (or vice-versa), transgender involves a degree of pretence by the individual involved, which everyone else is then expected to go along with.  I can fully understand that some people feel they are born into the wrong gender and feel they have the mind, soul or whatever of the opposite gender.  But they can't, as yet, become that gender, only a superficial replica at best.  



I think people who really feel they're born the wrong gender and suffer mentally because of it, they deserve compassion and understanding.  If they really feel they need to live as the opposite gender then they should be accepted as transgender - it's that final step to accepting them as really of the opposite gender that's more difficult.



This is not the same issue as if people are gay.  Gay people are attracted to others of the same gender - that's a fact, if they're 'out' and open about it, there's no pretence involved.



Don't we all face this 'wrong body' syndrome to some extent as we get older and feel like a young person trapped in an old person's body?

Welcome HQQ. I've missed you!  :hattip

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

Until some day in the distant future when a man might genuinely be able to transition to being a real woman (or vice-versa), transgender involves a degree of pretence by the individual involved, which everyone else is then expected to go along with.  I can fully understand that some people feel they are born into the wrong gender and feel they have the mind, soul or whatever of the opposite gender.  But they can't, as yet, become that gender, only a superficial replica at best.  



People who really feel they're born the wrong gender and suffer mentally because of it deserve compassion and understanding.  If they really feel they need to live as the opposite gender then they should be accepted as transgender - it's that final step to accepting them as really of the opposite gender that's more difficult.



This is not the same issue as if people are gay.  Gay people are attracted to others of the same gender - that's a fact, if they're 'out' and open about it, there's no pretence involved.



Don't we all face this 'wrong body' syndrome to some extent as we get older and feel like a young person trapped in an old person's body?

[Baron von Lotsov]

To quote Barry







Describing transexuals as being 'mentally ill' and stating they need to be cured with therapy, drugs or  electroconvulsive therapy is blatant bigotry and quite frankly disguisting but as I said it seems this forum is perfectly happy with even the most vile bigotry as long as it's not racism.

We're not thinking of doing this to them. You are thinking of Dr Frankenstein's clinic.



Actually I've known a lot of mad people and many who are quivering wrecks because they have been subjected to bad stuff for their minds, often picked up from dodgy universities. It takes a long time, but they need the will to kick the habit. If they have the will it is possible for them to gradually shift back to reality. Those who deliberately screw people's minds are evil. It's people like myself who has to deal with the injuries. We don't have a transexual mental problem here, but we have other madness, like there are people who believe the world is flat or that 5G is a military weapon designed to kill us. Maybe you don't see people like that, because maybe you don't have mind screwers working professionally in your area, but we do. One common method is to tell a lie to huge that the mind can be fooled to accept it, and often more easily than a small lie. Technically it is known as changing someone's world view, which is how they conceive the world through their senses, i.e. their mental construct that enables them to understand the information from their senses, like  a  framework to hang it on.

[patman post]

You know when the liberals say people can do as they like, as long as it does not affect others?

Well, this transgender stuff has lots of people saying that male is female and vice versa. Then the deluded people who think they have transitioned expect me to join in with their deception.

A man I met recently said, "I want to be woman" - "Is illegal in my country, but in your country is good".

Good? Nothing could be further from the truth.



I've seen that sports is being affected now with "women" that are really men breaking new records. This is absurd and perverse.

The thing that defines a man or woman is the presence of a "Y" chromosome.

Notwithstanding genetic defects and abnormalities, these trans types are mentally ill. To start giving them surgery is just crazy and abusive, when they need counselling, or anti-depressants or even ECT.



So to the PC brigade who want me to refer to a man as she, or a woman as "he" I say, "No", as I don't want to be associated with the deception and lies working their way through our society.

People can change and choose their names by deed poll — even online — so why not allow the same for gender?

If sport is your particular hang up, why not run it as with Paralympics and specify the degrees of difference, and have classes of difference for each sport's events?

Not sure mental problems are any more present among transgender people than any other group subject to spontaneous discrimination and hatred.

As for how they are addressed, surely it's up to them? It's not that difficult to become accustomed to not being gender specific in everyday life when addressing people...

[DeppityDawg]

I'm calling out blatantly transphobic comments and the fact that this forum seems perfectly happy for them to be made.



If you're happy to let those kind of comments to stand unchallenged and label anyone who isn't as an 'offended liberal' in a attempt to legitimise bigotry then that is your choice.

Thanks for that. Glad you recognise that I have a "choice". My choice is not to be constantly offended by other people's choices, even if they don't always agree with my views and values. I'm just making a cup of tea. Fancy one?

[cromwell]

Adding transphobia to your repertoire of bigotry?



Sadly this forum only appears to have rules against racism and gives everything else a green light.

No it does not and I happen to disagree with Barry in part at least,I really don't give a rats bottom what someone wants to be or does as long as they aren't harming anyone else or breaking the law and clearly in most cases they do neither.



In my locale there is a six foot six bloke who dresses as a woman,some laugh others jeer and some are more than offensive and aggressive too and some call him?her it as does Jog in another post which I find totally unnecessary.



As I said I don't subscribe to all Barrys views but it was an opinion and not grossly offensive,some may find your views of leavers and Brexit offensive,should we delete those too? No because you express an opinion as has Barry,the Mods have looked at this and see no call for action I would say I do find your criticism of this forum and the moderating too unfair but it's your opinion so I hope you get it now.....it's a discussion forum with wide ranging views and opinions.

[T00ts]

Did you day they were mentally ill and in need of therapy, drugging and electroconvulsive therapy in order to 'fix' them? No you didn't.



I accept that there are differences of opinion but there is a big difference between holding those views privately and posting comments like Barry did.

It is not trans-phobic or bigoted to question the mental health of someone who is so far from the accepted norm. It shows concern for them that such a drastic step is not taken without full consideration. After all we already have instances of regret. I could well question your mental health for your political views. It is only the same concern. I would question your right to demand that anyone should be silenced.

[Churchill]

I'm calling out blatantly transphobic comments and the fact that this forum seems perfectly happy for them to be made.



If you're happy to let those kind of comments to stand unchallenged and label anyone who isn't as an 'offended liberal' in a attempt to legitimise bigotry then that is your choice.

No matter how hard your try to censor people you cannot silence everyone , they may not say openly what they think for fear of being criticized but they can still think feel and have their own opinions ,and there is nothing you can do to stop it

[Ciaphas]

As a deeply religious believer I cannot accept anything other than 2 genders. Can I explain the feelings of those who take on a trans persona? No and as I believe in free will then I cannot condemn them for their choices. What does upset me is those who determine what I should accept, regardless of my firmly held beliefs. If I am prepared to honour other's free will why should mine be undermined?

Did you day they were mentally ill and in need of therapy, drugging and electroconvulsive therapy in order to 'fix' them? No you didn't.



I accept that there are differences of opinion but there is a big difference between holding those views privately and posting comments like Barry did.