Afghanistan - greatest foreign policy disaster of a generation?

[cromwell]

In the end mate, none of our rules or moral sensibilities matter a feck in Afghanistan anymore. We can't offer any assistance to its people now, because we lost both the war and the will to fight it, so it's no good now any of us complaining about the Taliban. They have more legitimacy there than we do. We can have whatever morals we like, but if we don't control the real estate or the apparatus of power, it means feck all

It could have been different, but our enemies have no fear of us because they know how it will all play out. We'll send our forces in blindfold with one hand tied behind their backs and we'll hammer them the second a mistake is made. The ambulance chasing will go on for decades afterwards and we'll be left with another generation of soldiers and former soldiers with burdens they'll have to carry for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile the politicians hide from the results of their policies. This is how these conflicts always play out. It was always simply a waiting game for the Taliban, because everyone has seen it all before.

Well those who served this country can hold their heads high though I guess many like the rest of us wonder wtf it was all for.

As to the politicians they should hang their heads in shame.....but never do and come up with fat wallets and an even fatter estimation of their worth.

[Borchester]

You can imagine the reaction of the liberal media had this happened under Trumps watch. Although I believe he instigated the policy, its hard to see even Trump making this much of a feck up of it. I don't know whether the latter sentence you've written is true or not, but this disaster ought to bring Biden's administration down. He's failed in virtually all areas so far, but this is about as bad as it gets

To be fair to Biden (and I can't see why anyone should be. At his age he should be playing with his grandchildren rather than sleeping his life away in the White House), it has always been American policy to get the troops out of Afghanistan. The problem is that there is no elegant way to do it.

At least it wasn't one survivor out of 16,000, like poor old Dr. William Brydon

https://www.thoughtco.com/thmb/Md3j_jryWMx_98EuUJRPUcQy4g0=/2180x1226/smart/filters:no_upscale()/Remnants_of_an_army2-5c380bdd46e0fb000100a8b9.jpg

You can imagine the reaction of the liberal media had this happened under Trumps watch. Although I believe he instigated the policy, its hard to see even Trump making this much of a feck up of it. I don't know whether the latter sentence you've written is true or not, but this disaster ought to bring Biden's administration down. He's failed in virtually all areas so far, but this is about as bad as it gets

Dunno.

Sooner or later all the great powers end up in Afghanistan. The problem is to get them out. Poor old Dr Brydon springs to mind.

Biden is a senile old fool who should be playing with his grandchildren rather than himself, but I can't really see how anyone else could have done better.

[Thomas]

Well they ain't your friends either

I will pick my own "friends" cromwell , thank you very much , and i wont have you , the british brainwashing corporation or anyone else tell me who they are.

I didnt say china or russia were my "friends" , i said they arent my enemies. This doesnt make the opposite position the default.

Why is it when i say something on this forum or its predesscessor thats contrary the narrative of the msm , all of a sudden its somehow those nasty scots insurgents making friends with the wrong types and trying to undermine the empire?

FGS remember jim franklin on the old forum accussed me of hoping america  ,( the scottish insurgents last international friend) would try and win scotlands independence for us simply because i agreed with what flash the yank republican said about various stuff???

America isnt "your friend" either . Since the suez crises in the late fifties  , when america humiliated the uk on the world stage , took you aside and told you whats what , it hasnt stopped the propaganda machine churning out the guff about the "special relationship" ,( which generally consists of america saying jump and various uk leaders saying how high sir) and people believeing it.

You recall correctly,but Americas retreat leaves a vacuum quickly filled

Eh? They created a desert and called it peace?

From the various stuff that im reading , its not a vacumn being filled , its a people taking back control of their own land from foreign usurpers. Depending on the perspective of course...

all I'm pointing out is that any expectation that it will be filled for the better would be a mistake IMO.

...and who suggested it is being filled for the better or worse?

The point is cromwell , its not down to you , the msm or the worlds self appointed policemen to tell another nation how to live thier lives according to "your " rules.

Quite clearly , from the speed at which afghanistan is "falling" , the people are welcoming them back and returning to their own way of life.Who are you or yours to "judge " others?

For all I don't dispute what you posted I see trouble on the horizon,

Trouble on the horison? feck Sake cromwell where have you been these last twenty years?

The trouble isnt on the horizon ....its here! As ever , america withdraws from yet another country torn asunder for their amusements and small political games , and many others have to pick up the pieces.

the west does stand for certain values often not honoured by it's own political leaders

och rubbish cromwell. Every country on earth past or present believed itself to have superior moral values. This sort of writing shows you swallow the propaganda of washington/london good guys , everyone else they name and shame as bad  guys without thinking.

Wether you" think" your countires morals and standards , or that of your countries masters in washington , are superior doesnt give you the right to impose them on others.

While the msm , who never ever tell porkie pies , are telling cromwell in manchester the fairy tale about good guy bad guy conflict and how the nasty mr putin annexed crimea , the russian msm are telling your equivalent in moscow the same fairy taled about the good guys bad guy story of how the nasty evil british annexed the 6 counties of norhtern ireland.

Over in beijing , they are telling their citizens the story of how the nasty evil americans , with their british puppets , depopulated the chagos islands of the natives and refused to abide by a united nations mandate to vacate the chagos islands and hand them back to the native poeple , and how the majority of nations in the world voted against the uk and us.

All a matter of perspective .

whilst you say China and Russia aren't your enemy would you choose to live under their system?

False dichotomy . Having been born into he greatest nation on earth , scotland , of course i wouldnt.

On a serious note , i bet many many people in china and russia and their so called evil system of rule had happeir lives and a better chance in life than what i did growing up ion glasgow in the late seventies early eighties under the wonder of the british sytem.

I havent been to russia or china , but i would like to , and i quite like the look of living somewhere like sochi.

They still arent my enemies. I havent come across much that originates in moscow or beijing that makes my life difficult , but i can think of plenty that comes out of your capital city and washington that complicates the lives of all of us.

I don't have a problem with Samps he posts some interesting stuff and we agree occasionally,the bits I just don't buy is the never ending propaganda stuff,he's free to post it and I and anyone else is free to call him out as and when.

We all post things that could be classed as propaganda , so do you.

Yeah have already posted on here that they haven't leant from the empires humiliation (twice) or the lesson handed out to Russia just looking to the future and who will be replacing washington......and it ain't rosey.

I couldnt give a F@@@ about washington . All my life , i have only ever seen three uk politicians stand up to them and not fall over themselves arse licking the american elite , two i disliked intensely , thatcher and galloway , but respected them , the other was salmond.

Occassionally its refreshing seeing a uk politician who doesnt have theri tongue so far up the POTUS arse its sticking out his throat , yet sadly its also something extremely rare.

[DeppityDawg]

They now have massive amounts of US weapons and armaments from the Armouries abandoned by the US backed Afghan Army. In Bagram there is footage of rooms filled to the ceiling with huge piles of the stuff.
The only people to blame for this is the US, they pumped billions if not Trillions into country without any effective accounting and knowing full well the scale of corruption within the regime they installed. The US spent god knows how much to equip tens of thousands of ghost soldiers and never once seem to have checked to make sure these units even existed!

You can imagine the reaction of the liberal media had this happened under Trumps watch. Although I believe he instigated the policy, its hard to see even Trump making this much of a feck up of it. I don't know whether the latter sentence you've written is true or not, but this disaster ought to bring Biden's administration down. He's failed in virtually all areas so far, but this is about as bad as it gets

[Sheepy]

Hold the interpreter — I reckon a code breaker would be more appropriate.   


Though I guess we'd have to decide if there would be anything worth deciphering...

Just showing my humanitarian side Pat, in the allotted time because once it runs out it is finito.  Maybe you should try it instead of thinking you are a smartarse.

[Sampanviking]

The scenes at the airport shown on TV news channels are really upsetting yet other places away from there seem quiet almost deserted. Is this the lull before the storm? Have we and USA spent millions in supplying arms etc that have now been handed over to them? Is Russia/China actually financing them because an interview suggested they were richer now than before. Have they spent these 20 years simply preparing?

I forget where I heard it but it was suggested that everything the Taliban leaders have been saying is lies. It doesn't speak too well on our Foreign Office credibility that they should have been taken in so easily.

I doubt that either Russia and China have been supporting the Taliban, as both have had major problems with Islamic Terrorism themselves, so have no motivation to want to encourage it.
For support of the Taliban, well look first to Pakistan where the other half of the Pashtun population live. The leadership have been living in Qatar and the equipment they use is a mix of Russian, Chinese and American, gleaned over the years (lots of pictures of Taliban driving around in new Humvies).
They now have massive amounts of US weapons and armaments from the Armouries abandoned by the US backed Afghan Army. In Bagram there is footage of rooms filled to the ceiling with huge piles of the stuff.
The only people to blame for this is the US, they pumped billions if not Trillions into country without any effective accounting and knowing full well the scale of corruption within the regime they installed. The US spent god knows how much to equip tens of thousands of ghost soldiers and never once seem to have checked to make sure these units even existed!

[patman post]

Which you wouldn't have a chance of doing, if it wasn't for the Taliban giving time for evacuating people. So the Chinese cut you some slack, be grateful for small fecking mercies.

Hold the interpreter — I reckon a code breaker would be more appropriate.   


Though I guess we'd have to decide if there would be anything worth deciphering...

[T00ts]

The scenes at the airport shown on TV news channels are really upsetting yet other places away from there seem quiet almost deserted. Is this the lull before the storm? Have we and USA spent millions in supplying arms etc that have now been handed over to them? Is Russia/China actually financing them because an interview suggested they were richer now than before. Have they spent these 20 years simply preparing?

I forget where I heard it but it was suggested that everything the Taliban leaders have been saying is lies. It doesn't speak too well on our Foreign Office credibility that they should have been taken in so easily.

[Barry]

Quick, let's get out of here.

[cromwell]

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2021/08/graveyard-empires-why-american-power-failed-afghanistan?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

[Sampanviking]

Perhaps you forget that you are the poster who picked up the qualified aside on India and decided to turn it into a major issue.   

My observation was limited to the fact that India was one of several countries worrying that it would be affected by the current events in Afghanistan. And India is still worrying: 

India's worry about the increase in terror activities in Kashmir is a real one. There had been several infiltration attempts in Kashmir where groups of foreign mercenaries trained and operated in Afghanistan have tried to enter the "Heaven of the Earth". The last few months witnessed the killing of some high-profile terrorist commanders of Pakistani origin in Kashmir. After the 5^th August 2019 events, Pakistani ISI is in utter frustration and is too eager to re-start the terrorism in Kashmir and hence is facilitating the influx of foreign terrorists in collaboration with the Taliban into India.
https://www.india.com/news/rise-of-taliban-in-afghanistan-ramifications-for-india-after-fall-of-kabul-4885960/ 

Belittling Indian news media doesn't wipe out their coverage of Indian concerns...

Well that fair enough. We can it lie at that.

[Sheepy]

PM him your phone number and perhaps he will — but only after after he's found an interpreter...

Which you wouldn't have a chance of doing, if it wasn't for the Taliban giving time for evacuating people. So the Chinese cut you some slack, be grateful for small fecking mercies.

[patman post]

Feck me, am I speaking double frigging Dutch or something?
Call me Smurphy.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-says-ready-for-friendly-relations-with-taliban/vi-AANnqh0?ocid=msedgntp

PM him your phone number and perhaps he will — but only after after he's found an interpreter...

[patman post]

Here we go, Bl**din India again.
***
India has no skin left in the game and controls no direct border with Afghanistan, it is irrelevant in any decisions or agreements which may now subsequently be reached with those countries that have.

Perhaps you forget that you are the poster who picked up the qualified aside on India and decided to turn it into a major issue.   

My observation was limited to the fact that India was one of several countries worrying that it would be affected by the current events in Afghanistan. And India is still worrying: 

India's worry about the increase in terror activities in Kashmir is a real one. There had been several infiltration attempts in Kashmir where groups of foreign mercenaries trained and operated in Afghanistan have tried to enter the "Heaven of the Earth". The last few months witnessed the killing of some high-profile terrorist commanders of Pakistani origin in Kashmir. After the 5^th August 2019 events, Pakistani ISI is in utter frustration and is too eager to re-start the terrorism in Kashmir and hence is facilitating the influx of foreign terrorists in collaboration with the Taliban into India.
https://www.india.com/news/rise-of-taliban-in-afghanistan-ramifications-for-india-after-fall-of-kabul-4885960/ 

Belittling Indian news media doesn't wipe out their coverage of Indian concerns...

[Sheepy]

And I asked it on another thread
You replace it with what?

Which I ain't playing along with until others have their say. I might amuse myself in the meantime with some music.