Will Friday's result be accepted?

[papasmurf]

About the only sensible and unbiased point you have made is that our electoral system is broken, in my view irretrievably, and needs extensive reform. Contrary to your suggestion in another post I do not defend FPTP and have been a regular supporter of PR, the disestablishment of the C of E from politics, the reform of the Lords, the abolishment of peerages. The first measure I would wish to see repealed is the Fixed Term Parliament Act, introduced or no other reason than Clegg and Cameron distrusted each other.

I have to ask, and this is a serious question, just how many deaths caused by Tory austerity and a doctrine based hostile environment towards vulnerable people is acceptable to you? There must be limit which will make you think "not in my name."

Please do not go off on a rant.

[Major Sinic]

I don't believe the mechanics of the vote will be suspect.



That is to say there won't be vote stuffing, missing ballots, thugs outside polling stations.  The count will be a fair and accurate representation of the votes cast. We haven't yet fallen so far that those basic functions are compromised.



On the other hand, there are now other ways to hack democracy.



For a start it looks likely that the majority of voters will vote for parties with either revoke or 2nd ref in their manifesto yet we could well end up with a hard brexit government.  



However that is the FPTP system for you.  As it is currently the system we have I might not like it but Indo accept it.



In addition, the campaign has been characterised by we of the worst instances of outright lying I have seen.



From Johnson persisting on claiming that there will be no checks between NI and GB despite his own agreement, government departments, experts on trade and the Irish government saying there will be to the "50k nurses" it's been a crapshow.



And that's before we even get into punchgate, floorgate and the terrible interview where Johnson pocketed a journalists phone.



So regardless of the result I will be campaigning for electoral and political reform.



Can I check with the leavers here, given the chances of a hung Parliament are not insignificant (about 1 in 4 at the moment) *if* there is a hung Parliament and a coalition government decides to hold a 2nd referendum - will you accept that result and will you accept the result of the 2nd referendum?

I suppose it is human nature, and I certainly acknowledge my own tendency to adopt a partisan position, although I make no secret of my right of centre Conservative ideology so while I may be biased in my views I am certainly not hypocritical.



You on the other hand when you first appeared as a forum poster appeared to attempt to project yourself as objective, open-minded, non-partisan and moderate. In doing this you of course, and possibly inevitably, adopted an air of superior condescension.



However you have now moved on to a blatantly partisan position while still demonstrating your superior condescension. It has been a vicious and dishonest campaign, but all and the only evidence or examples you proffer are anti-Conservative. Are you blind to the lies, half truths of Corbyn and Swinson. Do you really not see the vile and hateful anti-semitism endemic in the Labour Party (according to a recent leak 136 cases identified 18 or more months ago have still not been investigated). Do you really find it acceptable that the leader of the main opposition party has for most of his political life supported terrorist organisations, or are you like smurf who declares any proven events with which he disagrees as 'propaganda and lies'?



Do you not recognise that it is quite simply impossible for Labour to carry out its programme of economic vandalism, without the less well off being hit with tax rises and for uncosted promises leading to further uncosted borrowing. Do you find it acceptable that a Labour government can rob its citizens of their own property legitimately earned or gained, without paying market value compensation? Do you honestly believe that confiscating 10% of the share value of any company with 250 employees or more and increasing Corporation Tax by 37% to 26%, reducing the working week to four days (except for nurses it seems) is going to result in increased productivity? a flow of much needed foreign investment (whether we are in or out of the EU)? the halting of capital flight abroad closely followed the mega wealthy leaving these shores and justifiably sticking two figures up at Labour?



About the only sensible and unbiased point you have made is that our electoral system is broken, in my view irretrievably, and needs extensive reform. Contrary to your suggestion in another post I do not defend FPTP and have been a regular supporter of PR, the disestablishment of the C of E from politics, the reform of the Lords, the abolishment of peerages. The first measure I would wish to see repealed is the Fixed Term Parliament Act, introduced or no other reason than Clegg and Cameron distrusted each other.



Beyond politics I can't see much of the tragic social division which has riven our nation being healed even in the next decade. The respect which the majority of the British once had for their fellow citizens' views, even if recently little more than a veneer has gone. Intolerance, insult and violent disorder are increasingly becoming the norm.

[Churchill]

Really? I'd never have guessed





Jolly decent of you





Well fptp hasn't really worked for years,so what's new? Ah yes,you might lose......again.







No the point is you're adopting an air of moral superiority,again.

What's held dear is democracy as it stands,but you,Swinson and so many others only recognise it when it goes your way.

I agree with you Cromwell our Democracy has been badly damaged, the majority who voted for Brexit have been ignored and often insulted racists, little Englanders by some who voted against leaving the EU, that is why I feel why bother voting in the future, will my vote be ignored and dismissed in the future.



The day to day running of our country has been disrupted for over three years because of the infighting in Parliament over Brexit weakening both Mays and Boris's hand when trying to negotiate with the EU, the anti leavers have actually sowed division in the country and created a lot of anger.



Many people IMO have had enough of this childish arrogant nonsense, I suspect many will not bother to vote why would they if they think their vote will not count or be ignored.



We could end up with another hung Government or one with a narrow majority which will mean the farce will continue for longer, what do we have to do to make our poloticians listen to the people, take to the streets like the French ? I do hope that never happens but it might.



If Corbyn and his far left Comrades win tomorrow, Brexit will be the least of the nations problems

[Churchill]

<Shrugs> I can live with that loss

As they say be careful what you wish for,my vote is worth little or nothing now what will yours be worth in the future when and if yours is ignored

[BeElBeeBub]

No the point is you're adopting an air of moral superiority,again.



What's held dear is democracy as it stands,but you,Swinson and so many others only recognise it when it goes your way.

our democracy has been followed.



The Leave side are the ones who have been supporting attacks on the judiciary, unlawful suspensions of parliament etc.



Seriously, look up a list of the things that authoritarian regimes around the world and throughout history have done then compare them to what the government/vote leave have done.



Aren't you even the tiniest bit concerned that Brexit has gone from an amazing opportunity to something we need to get over with as fast as possible to deal with other things?  How the government would rather pull the legislation than allow more than 3 days for scrutiny and debate? Or how the PM persists in saying there will be no checks between NI and GB when everyone else including his own government departments say there will be?



2+2=5



The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

[cromwell]

Not quite what I was getting at.

Really? I'd never have guessed

I accept the result of Friday will be technically (as in actual rigging) acceptable.

Jolly decent of you

I think the campaign has been disgraceful and the FPTP system has failed, but we are where we are and this is the law of the land.

Well fptp hasn't really worked for years,so what's new? Ah yes,you might lose......again.

The point is *if* there is a hung Parliament, and *if* a 2nd referendum is held it will be the definition of (according to our laws) democracy and the parliamentary sovereignty you all hold so dear

No the point is you're adopting an air of moral superiority,again.

What's held dear is democracy as it stands,but you,Swinson and so many others only recognise it when it goes your way.

[BeElBeeBub]

What in the same way you and other remainers on here did the first?  :-P

Not quite what I was getting at.



I accept the result of Friday will be technically (as in actual rigging) acceptable.



I think the campaign has been disgraceful and the FPTP system has failed, but we are where we are and this is the law of the land.



The point is *if* there is a hung Parliament, and *if* a 2nd referendum is held it will be the definition of (according to our laws) democracy and the parliamentry sovereignty you all hold so dear.

[BeElBeeBub]

No if that happens I will never vote again even at local level

<Shrugs> I can live with that loss

[T00ts]

Surely our most recent experiences of hung parliaments has revealed just how hopeless they can be. Cameron and Clegg was bad enough but the shambles of the last couple of years was dire. As far as I can see all other proposals leave a hung parliament even more likely.



Is that really the answer? Won't we be locked into a cycle of elections/arguments/game playing like Italy for example? I can't imagine anything worse.

[Churchill]

I don't believe the mechanics of the vote will be suspect.



That is to say there won't be vote stuffing, missing ballots, thugs outside polling stations.  The count will be a fair and accurate representation of the votes cast. We haven't yet fallen so far that those basic functions are compromised.



On the other hand, there are now other ways to hack democracy.



For a start it looks likely that the majority of voters will vote for parties with either revoke or 2nd ref in their manifesto yet we could well end up with a hard brexit government.  



However that is the FPTP system for you.  As it is currently the system we have I might not like it but Indo accept it.



In addition, the campaign has been characterised by we of the worst instances of outright lying I have seen.



From Johnson persisting on claiming that there will be no checks between NI and GB despite his own agreement, government departments, experts on trade and the Irish government saying there will be to the "50k nurses" it's been a crapshow.



And that's before we even get into punchgate, floorgate and the terrible interview where Johnson pocketed a journalists phone.



So regardless of the result I will be campaigning for electoral and political reform.



Can I check with the leavers here, given the chances of a hung Parliament are not insignificant (about 1 in 4 at the moment) *if* there is a hung Parliament and a coalition government decides to hold a 2nd referendum - will you accept that result and will you accept the result of the 2nd referendum?

No if that happens I will never vote again even at local level

[cromwell]

I don't believe the mechanics of the vote will be suspect.



That is to say there won't be vote stuffing, missing ballots, thugs outside polling stations.  The count will be a fair and accurate representation of the votes cast. We haven't yet fallen so far that those basic functions are compromised.



On the other hand, there are now other ways to hack democracy.



For a start it looks likely that the majority of voters will vote for parties with either revoke or 2nd ref in their manifesto yet we could well end up with a hard brexit government.  



However that is the FPTP system for you.  As it is currently the system we have I might not like it but Indo accept it.



In addition, the campaign has been characterised by we of the worst instances of outright lying I have seen.



From Johnson persisting on claiming that there will be no checks between NI and GB despite his own agreement, government departments, experts on trade and the Irish government saying there will be to the "50k nurses" it's been a crapshow.



And that's before we even get into punchgate, floorgate and the terrible interview where Johnson pocketed a journalists phone.



So regardless of the result I will be campaigning for electoral and political reform.



Can I check with the leavers here, given the chances of a hung Parliament are not insignificant (about 1 in 4 at the moment) *if* there is a hung Parliament and a coalition government decides to hold a 2nd referendum - will you accept that result and will you accept the result of the 2nd referendum?

What in the same way you and other remainers on here did the first?  :-P

[Javert]

I guess the result will be accepted, but it won't be accepted as a confirmation that the UK wants to leave the EU or never wants to rejoin.



This is for the reason I posted on another thread which is that based on recent polling analysis, the conservatives will get a majority based on less than 16.1 million votes, but over 17.4 million people will vote for parties that either oppose Brexit or want a confirmatory referendum.



Unfortunately politics in this country is completely broken, mainly because of the FPTP system, and we are currently on a trajectory towards autocratic government and being similar to Russia.

[BeElBeeBub]

I don't believe the mechanics of the vote will be suspect.



That is to say there won't be vote stuffing, missing ballots, thugs outside polling stations.  The count will be a fair and accurate representation of the votes cast. We haven't yet fallen so far that those basic functions are compromised.



On the other hand, there are now other ways to hack democracy.



For a start it looks likely that the majority of voters will vote for parties with either revoke or 2nd ref in their manifesto yet we could well end up with a hard brexit government.  



However that is the FPTP system for you.  As it is currently the system we have I might not like it but Indo accept it.



In addition, the campaign has been characterised by we of the worst instances of outright lying I have seen.



From Johnson persisting on claiming that there will be no checks between NI and GB despite his own agreement, government departments, experts on trade and the Irish government saying there will be to the "50k nurses" it's been a crapshow.



And that's before we even get into punchgate, floorgate and the terrible interview where Johnson pocketed a journalists phone.



So regardless of the result I will be campaigning for electoral and political reform.



Can I check with the leavers here, given the chances of a hung Parliament are not insignificant (about 1 in 4 at the moment) *if* there is a hung Parliament and a coalition government decides to hold a 2nd referendum - will you accept that result and will you accept the result of the 2nd referendum?

[Ciaphas]

Will it? Of course.



Should it? Probably not given the epic volume of lies and misinformation put out by the Conservatives and their media allies.



Sadly we may as well not have an electoral regulator for all the good it does.

[Major Sinic]

The economic danger of a Marxist controlled government of many colours but all shades of red, headed by the likes of Corbyn and McDonnell, is vastly more threatening then any challenges which Brexit might raise. Particularly as they will have sold their souls to the SNP, who don't give a damn that the UK excluding Scotland will with Labour's economic insanity, will go to hell in a handcart.



When compared with the morals of Corbyn, Boris is verging on a saint. Corbyn, who is certainly not blameless when it comes to lying, is at best a passive supporter of institutional anti-semitism in the Labour Party, a long term supporter of terrorism and the enemies of the UK, including the IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah, antagonistic toward the UK's closest ally and largest national export market, a tacit supporter of Russia and Putin by refusing to condemn Russia for carrying out murder on British soil and allegedly happy to accept leaks from the Russian States to further his election hopes, and a man who holds Venezuela and Cuba up as fine examples of Marxist socialism. The man is a complete and total disgrace,