The culprits for the Afghanistan debacle revealed

[GerryT]

Jesus wept, we have the whole spectrum of self loathing ****s now. Postbox, Quack Quack and now Gerry T.

He's talking about Britain after the war and marshall aid, Gerry, not Brexit. Although obsessing over how shit Britain is/was is something you both have in common.

Is he talking about Britain after the war or the UK, their not the same thing.
If you missed it patman said the UK should have invested post war in high skilled jobs, then the dawg came back with personal insults and trying to make out that the UK industry was high tech.
The UK chose to invest in its army, prob because it goes around the globe invading countries for no reason or beacuse the USA tells it to, so needs to be ready for the backlash.
The point being the UK eventually saw the benefit and moved away from metal bashing and into services, it also does some hi-tech manufacturing like pharma, which is what it should have done post the war. 

[DeppityDawg]

Like it or not the UK economy is near 80% services, very little manufacturing. What the UK used to do is just that, not done anymore. The once great car industry is mostly foreign owned, unless you want morgan, Caterham or McLaren. So pitman is correct, unless you think the mighty UK is going back to making goods ? Ground breaking idea, take on countries like China with low wages and ditch high paying services sectors, a cunning plan.

Jesus wept, we have the whole spectrum of self loathing ****s now. Postbox, Quack Quack and now Gerry T.

He's talking about Britain after the war and marshall aid, Gerry, not Brexit. Although obsessing over how shit Britain is/was is something you both have in common.

[GerryT]

Oh do feck off Lord Snooty you snobby ****. Elite prestige R&D what? When German quality like VW were still using an air cooled.engine designed before WW2 in the beetle until the late 70s, and Merc engines were no faster or reliable than jags. You wouldn't even know what a machine tool was if someone hit you over the head with one, you daft ****

Like it or not the UK economy is near 80% services, very little manufacturing. What the UK used to do is just that, not done anymore. The once great car industry is mostly foreign owned, unless you want morgan, Caterham or McLaren. So pitman is correct, unless you think the mighty UK is going back to making goods ? Ground breaking idea, take on countries like China with low wages and ditch high paying services sectors, a cunning plan.

[Nick]

That leaves Aston Martin, which is sort-of British owned again at the moment after a few years under Ford ownership.

And McLaren.

[HDQQ]

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/patrick-o-flynn/1483174/all-nations-pull-weight-afghanistan-joe-biden-us-president-taliban

With the EU failing to meet their obligations to NATO, it is no surprise that Afghanistan fell so quickly after the almighty UK and US troops left. It is a repeating story in Europe's history that the UK has shouldered the whole burden to keep this part of the world going. We didn't receive any Marshal plan aid after WW2 and instead dedicated a large amount of troops to keep the border in Nazi Germany secure.

When will this madness end?

The explanation is much simpler. Donald Trump said the US would withdraw from Afghanistan. Joe Biden was of the same opinion. So whoever won the US presidential election the withdrawal was 'locked in' - although Biden did extend the deadline by a few months. No need to make up convoluted fake conspiracy theories on this one.

Well I'll stick my beak in here,there would be no volkswagen had not Major Ivan Hirst a soldier and engineer in the British army of occupation stepped in and saved the company,volkswagen have acknowledged this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst

Well I'll stick my beak in here,there would be no volkswagen had not Major Ivan Hirst a soldier and engineer in the British army of occupation stepped in and saved the company,volkswagen have acknowledged this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst

Also the Mighty bmw was saved by the Isetta bubble car partly produced at the old Brighton loco works.So Britain did and still does have expertise,my brother worked for an engineering company in the 60's and 70's,a German company boastfully sent to them what they claimed was the worlds smallest drill bit,they drilled straight down it and sent it back.

And it all ended with VW buying Rolls-Royce Motors - except they didn't - because BMW had already done a deal with Rolls-Royce PLC (the aero engine company) to use the name Rolls-Royce on cars. So VW had to make do with using just the Bentley name! Britain has done really well with car exports over the last few decades. We also exported Jaguar Land Rover to India (Tata Industries) via USA (Ford) and Germany (BMW), MG to China, Lotus to China and Malaysia and even Morgan is now Italian owned. That leaves Aston Martin, which is sort-of British owned again at the moment after a few years under Ford ownership.

[cromwell]

Well I'll stick my beak in here,there would be no volkswagen had not Major Ivan Hirst a soldier and engineer in the British army of occupation stepped in and saved the company,volkswagen have acknowledged this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst

Also the Mighty bmw was saved by the Isetta bubble car partly produced at the old Brighton loco works.So Britain did and still does have expertise,my brother worked for an engineering company in the 60's and 70's,a German company boastfully sent to them what they claimed was the worlds smallest drill bit,they drilled straight down it and sent it back.

[DeppityDawg]

There was always work to do. And using up people to do it by hand — especially churning out lumps of iron in the guise of machine tools, or steam locomotives, or bread and butter motor vehicles to pre-war specs to flog to the dominions, etc, etc, etc. In fact, there was so much unskilled labour required it had to be imported.   


What was really required was the middle way between old school metal bashing and the elite prestige R&D, that would result in desirable manufactures the world would queue up to buy...

Oh do feck off Lord Snooty you snobby ****. Elite prestige R&D what? When German quality like VW were still using an air cooled.engine designed before WW2 in the beetle until the late 70s, and Merc engines were no faster or reliable than jags. You wouldn't even know what a machine tool was if someone hit you over the head with one, you daft ****

[Borchester]

There was always work to do. And using up people to do it by hand — especially churning out lumps of iron in the guise of machine tools, or steam locomotives, or bread and butter motor vehicles to pre-war specs to flog to the dominions, etc, etc, etc. In fact, there was so much unskilled labour required it had to be imported.   


What was really required was the middle way between old school metal bashing and the elite prestige R&D, that would result in desirable manufactures the world would queue up to buy...

Oh. I never thought of that.

So in the 1940s to 1970s folk were using steam trains and motor cars and metal bashing so there was plenty of work.

And from the early 1920s to the late 1930s  folk were using steam trains and motor cars and metal bashing so there was mass unemployment.

Thanks for clearing that one up Pat.

[patman post]

There was always work to do. And using up people to do it by hand — especially churning out lumps of iron in the guise of machine tools, or steam locomotives, or bread and butter motor vehicles to pre-war specs to flog to the dominions, etc, etc, etc. In fact, there was so much unskilled labour required it had to be imported.   


What was really required was the middle way between old school metal bashing and the elite prestige R&D, that would result in desirable manufactures the world would queue up to buy...

[Borchester]

Although I'm flattered you care so much about my personal circumstances, I feel it's a shame you can't deal with the facts behind the observations rather than being sidetracked into personal comments about other posters. 

Most economic and industrial data show that despite the vast amount of monetary aid from the US after WWII, the UK had not used it wisely and has been in decline for at least the last half century — to quote John Kampfner "Britain is mired in monolingual mediocrity, with its reference points extending to the US and not much further". Britain borrows, shops, and lives in a nostalgic dreamworld. 

David Edgerton, in  a critique of Kampfer's book, writes: For the British readers this book is directed at, the implied contrasts are startling. German conservatism produced Angela Merkel, easily the most respected democratic leader in the world, while the English variety produced Boris Johnson. Instead of demonising refugees from the Middle East in the cause of Brexit, Germany welcomed a million from Syria. When the depredations of Covid-19 struck, Germany tested and traced and kept its people relatively safe; England got a world-beating tally of preventable deaths. 
While Germany commemorated VE Day as a day of liberation, Brexiter Britain used the second world war, or rather an invented memory of it, to obscure the realities of a failing public health system, doubtless unaware that more have died from Covid-19 than in the blitz. 
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/22/why-the-germans-do-it-better-by-john-kampfner-review-notes-from-a-grown-up-country 

No doubt you'll dismiss Edgerton's remarks as the opinions of another pinko, despite the fact he's frequently at odds with Barnett, who saw military service and studied military and economic history. 

Both Barnett and Edgerton are worth reading. Between them, they show what has really happened and give ideas to how the UK could be trying to forge a new path in reality rather than believing the Brexit hype that now the UK has the freedom to regulate itself, it will forge new global standards like in the early days of jet air travel and nuclear power...

None of which explains why the UK had full employment from the 1940s to the end of the 1960s.

[patman post]

Yes Pat. Because of course, anything that presents past Britain as a kind of slightly less toxic version of Nazi Germany populated by incompetent buffoons and Empire dreamers would be right up your street. Its a wonder anyone back then managed to even get dressed on their own in morning, let alone fight a global war for 5 years

Lets face it Pat, despite taking advantage of the benefits, you rarely have anything positive to say about this country, let alone its past, so you're in good company with the contributors to the BBC's history website. Correlli Barnett is a historian, one of many historians on lots of different subjects whose opinions and views often differ. That he writes things which confirm your own biases simply tells us where you go to be informed - and since you weren't even born until the 1980s, other peoples perceptions of the past is about all you have to go on

Although I'm flattered you care so much about my personal circumstances, I feel it's a shame you can't deal with the facts behind the observations rather than being sidetracked into personal comments about other posters. 

Most economic and industrial data show that despite the vast amount of monetary aid from the US after WWII, the UK had not used it wisely and has been in decline for at least the last half century — to quote John Kampfner "Britain is mired in monolingual mediocrity, with its reference points extending to the US and not much further". Britain borrows, shops, and lives in a nostalgic dreamworld. 

David Edgerton, in  a critique of Kampfer's book, writes: For the British readers this book is directed at, the implied contrasts are startling. German conservatism produced Angela Merkel, easily the most respected democratic leader in the world, while the English variety produced Boris Johnson. Instead of demonising refugees from the Middle East in the cause of Brexit, Germany welcomed a million from Syria. When the depredations of Covid-19 struck, Germany tested and traced and kept its people relatively safe; England got a world-beating tally of preventable deaths. 
While Germany commemorated VE Day as a day of liberation, Brexiter Britain used the second world war, or rather an invented memory of it, to obscure the realities of a failing public health system, doubtless unaware that more have died from Covid-19 than in the blitz. 
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/22/why-the-germans-do-it-better-by-john-kampfner-review-notes-from-a-grown-up-country 

No doubt you'll dismiss Edgerton's remarks as the opinions of another pinko, despite the fact he's frequently at odds with Barnett, who saw military service and studied military and economic history. 

Both Barnett and Edgerton are worth reading. Between them, they show what has really happened and give ideas to how the UK could be trying to forge a new path in reality rather than believing the Brexit hype that now the UK has the freedom to regulate itself, it will forge new global standards like in the early days of jet air travel and nuclear power...

[Borchester]

Yes Pat. Because of course, anything that presents past Britain as a kind of slightly less toxic version of Nazi Germany populated by incompetent buffoons and Empire dreamers would be right up your street. Its a wonder anyone back then managed to even get dressed on their own in morning, let alone fight a global war for 5 years

Lets face it Pat, despite taking advantage of the benefits, you rarely have anything positive to say about this country, let alone its past, so you're in good company with the contributors to the BBC's history website. Correlli Barnett is a historian, one of many historians on lots of different subjects whose opinions and views often differ. That he writes things which confirm your own biases simply tells us where you go to be informed - and since you weren't even born until the 1980s, other peoples perceptions of the past is about all you have to go on

Pat is teasing.

He has always been the first to note that if the UK was as bad as made out, then literally millions of Commonwealth citizens would not have decided to settle in the Britain. He is also aware of the irony that having seen the British education system reduced to the level of a touchy feelie Islington love fest, his parents decided that the best thing was to send him off to Guyana where the teachers' response to any child who who complained that his feelings were hurt was to say, kid, we ain't started yet and give him six of the best.

Etc etc

[DeppityDawg]

Try reading the narrative of a renowned historian, Fellow of Churchill College, Cambridge, and former Keeper of the Churchill Archives Centre. He gives an even better analysis of the funds and chances Britain squandered in its forlorn chase to retain the trappings of empire...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml.

Yes Pat. Because of course, anything that presents past Britain as a kind of slightly less toxic version of Nazi Germany populated by incompetent buffoons and Empire dreamers would be right up your street. Its a wonder anyone back then managed to even get dressed on their own in morning, let alone fight a global war for 5 years

Lets face it Pat, despite taking advantage of the benefits, you rarely have anything positive to say about this country, let alone its past, so you're in good company with the contributors to the BBC's history website. Correlli Barnett is a historian, one of many historians on lots of different subjects whose opinions and views often differ. That he writes things which confirm your own biases simply tells us where you go to be informed - and since you weren't even born until the 1980s, other peoples perceptions of the past is about all you have to go on

[Borchester]

But hey, don't let the facts stand in the way of a cool sounding story, eh.

Well no, although now that Gerry's mum has insisted that the lad come out of his room and go to school, I suppose we must be grateful for even Pat's flights of fancy.

Our national dress should be sackcloth and ashes, so I hesitate to point out that after WWII the UK entered into boom that lasted more than two decades, which suggests that we must of been doing something right. But happiness not being our thing, I won't say anymore.

[patman post]

Try reading the narrative of a renowned historian, Fellow of Churchill College, Cambridge, and former Keeper of the Churchill Archives Centre. He gives an even better analysis of the funds and chances Britain squandered in its forlorn chase to retain the trappings of empire...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml.