The culprits for the Afghanistan debacle revealed

[patman post]

In that case, why did you make such a fuss about the UK's failure to produce skilled workers?

And if you are going to sneer at Deppity, it is reasonable to ask what is the high flying job you hold that makes you feel justified in such an attitude?

Don't see why "the UK's failure to produce skilled workers" is thought to be the thrust of my argument. My comments are based on the UK's Post War failure to put enough effort into developing and encouraging industries that attract and produce skilled jobs.   

In particular, I point out how the UK squandered its Marshall Aid, while other Western European countries repaired and modernised their infrastructures and invested in their industries. 

If DD is upset by any mild comments posted in his direction, perhaps he should refrain from making personal remarks about other posters. And while I've no reason to doubt DD's skills — I suggest there's different skill requirements between mechanics and engineers...

[GerryT]

No Gerry, thats fecking bullshit. He was guffawing  about ...

I pointed out to him that Germany, the nation with the biggest reputation for advant guarde quality, had at least one manufacturer still using an out of date pre war designed engine in its products

So unless you can provide a quote where I tried to "make out that the UK industry was high tech", then feck off back under your stone

You did miss it, the point being made was the uk didn't invest its post war monies in high value jobs. The Irish figured this out in the 1970s and it transformed our country. We invested in education and went after specific types of business, High value . Our tax systems and incentives worked. Our country was transformed.
You might think car manufacturing was cutting edge but whats the average pay in that industry in the UK, not much.
The UK did have financial services wrapped up which is what you want. But the folly of brexit is harming that and God only knows where it will be in 20yrs time, its future looks bleak.

[Borchester]

I'm not concerned whether or not you can strip down and rebuild a Jaguar XK, Cosworth V10, AJ or V12 in under 25 minutes.

In that case, why did you make such a fuss about the UK's failure to produce skilled workers?

And if you are going to sneer at Deppity, it is reasonable to ask what is the high flying job you hold that makes you feel justified in such an attitude?

[patman post]

Like I said, discuss it. Go on. Tell me what jobs you can and can't do on a beetle without dropping the engine? Tell me why dual mass flywheels on a golf fail (or any car come to that)? Common faults on VWs or Audis or BMs? Can you even open the f**king bonnet on your car? You were the one describing "lumps of iron" as machine tools, you half wit. Anything you like Pat. Do you even know what a closed deck engine is or what an intercooler does? No is almost certainly the answer (at least until you've looked it all up). All you've set out to do on this thread is rubbish the Colonel Blimps who you imagine ran this country in years gone by, because as usual, you've got feck all positive to say about it

No one "dismissed" Porsche or its air cooled engine - all that was pointed out is that the VW air cooled engine dates to pre-war, the very same criticism you were leveling at British manufacturers selling to the "dominions" = tell me Pat, why are German pre war designs ok, yet British ones somehow aren't?

Loads of cars from around the world have been badly designed and/or executed. If there was suddenly a thread started on this forum for every shit heap car, truck or bus manufacturer in other countries, you and and Gerry wouldn't bother your arses with them. Yet for some reason, you're both around this one like flies around shit

I'm not concerned whether or not you can strip down and rebuild a Jaguar XK, Cosworth V10, AJ or V12 in under 25 minutes. Or if you can identify a wet iron liner at 25 metres. Or even know if an engine is over square or under square.

In fact, I've no doubt you can assure me you can do all these things — and plenty more —  standing on your head before breakfast.

What I am questioning (and feel sorry for the years of indoctrination that has obviously resulted in it) is the full-on blinkered patriotism that filters out any criticism and bridles at the suggestion that, whatever the topic, GB should ever be criticised. 

Too many British industry leaders — and politicians and moneymen — chase short-term gains. And willing followers and yes men (worried about their pay packets) still believe in them. This has led, too often, to shaving the odd penny off costs by leaving advanced designs on the shelf, and old ready-to-hand technology being used without being improved and updated. The British post war motor industry is littered with such examples — but it's also true in many industries.

It's the old attitudes that have resulted in UK companies short of funds, struggling for markets, and to survive, finally having to sell out to successful overseas buyers.

Even then, the UK activities are frequently bought for their reputed British-image of old world leather and wood charm — it's a niche market and not to be ridiculed (much). But there are some that are acquired for their innovation and advanced technology.  Perhapos, climate change and clean energy will be one such and enable UK industry to become a key world player.

Hopefully you'll have soon hung up your greasy overalls, used the Swarfega for the last time, and you (and your bosses and their ilk) will have retired from the mainstream before your attitudes damage UK industry further...

[HDQQ]

And McLaren.

I confess I didn't know the current situation with McLaren, so I did some searching. Yes, it's a British company but with the majority of shares owned by overseas companies.

[DeppityDawg]

Nothing there other than your own google grab of a few buzzwords and a claim of 30 years "experience"

Like I said, discuss it. Go on. Tell me what jobs you can and can't do on a beetle without dropping the engine? Tell me why dual mass flywheels on a golf fail (or any car come to that)? Common faults on VWs or Audis or BMs? Can you even open the f**king bonnet on your car? You were the one describing "lumps of iron" as machine tools, you half wit. Anything you like Pat. Do you even know what a closed deck engine is or what an intercooler does? No is almost certainly the answer (at least until you've looked it all up). All you've set out to do on this thread is rubbish the Colonel Blimps who you imagine ran this country in years gone by, because as usual, you've got feck all positive to say about it

— though I note your dismissal of Porsche's air cooled design is now down-played.

No one "dismissed" Porsche or its air cooled engine - all that was pointed out is that the VW air cooled engine dates to pre-war, the very same criticism you were leveling at British manufacturers selling to the "dominions" = tell me Pat, why are German pre war designs ok, yet British ones somehow aren't?

But your justification of the brilliant conception of a Mini neglected to the fact that it was so poorly executed initially that the floor pan had to be redesigned to keep the water out. And the conventional cart-sprung Minor was just that — conventional and capable of sedately progressing in a straight line at a steady 55 mph, an ideal image for so much of the British mass car industry from 1950 on.

Loads of cars from around the world have been badly designed and/or executed. If there was suddenly a thread started on this forum for every shit heap car, truck or bus manufacturer in other countries, you and and Gerry wouldn't bother your arses with them. Yet for some reason, you're both around this one like flies around shit

[patman post]

^^^.


Nothing there other than your own google grab of a few buzzwords and a claim of 30 years "experience" — though I note your dismissal of Porsche's air cooled design is now down-played.  But your justification of the brilliant conception of a Mini neglected the fact that it was so poorly executed initially that the floor pan had to be redesigned to keep the water out. And the conventional cart-sprung Minor was just that — conventional and capable of sedately progressing in a straight line at a steady 55 mph, an ideal image for so much of the British mass car industry from 1950 on.


If the UK is/was even able to hold its own in so many advanced sectors, how come it's squandered so much of its efforts on also rans that have either disappeared or been absorbed by overseas concerns...?

[DeppityDawg]

Seems like your knowledge of automotive engineering is somewhat patchy. Are you sure your brain is not swamped by patriotic fervour?   

The VW air-cooled engine was the basis of the Porsche power plant from the Porsche 356 right up to the 1998 Porsche 911. The 1998 24-hour Le Mans overall win for a Porsche 911 was its last air-cooled outing — its 2015 win was a 919 hybrid. 

Really Pat? Well, if my "knowledge of automotive engineering is somewhat patchy", maybe you'd like to put it to the test, eh? My 30 years plus experience versus you and google? Since you now seem so clued up on air cooled engines, maybe you'd like to give me a brief resume on the relative merits of engine designs, like for instance closed versus open deck architecture, dry versus wet liners, what the biggest weakness of air cooled engines actually is in practice, what the dangers of heat/high EGTs are, or what actual advantages air cooled engines have over liquid cooled?

The fact is Pat, as I've just pointed out to your pal Gerry, I'm not saying Britain was better than anyone else, I simply pointed out to you that "pre war specs" or designs don't necessarily make something bad, anymore than "new technology" is always makes something better. Air cooled engines are a relatively simple and reliable design, which have many merits of their own, and which is why the VW beetle was such a successful car. As was the Morris Minor or the Mini for that matter

Go back to google Pat. You'll still constantly show yourself up in these arguments by pretending to know what you are talking about, and then fail when it comes to the practical insight that you'll never have. Because you've never actually had any experience of most of the things you write about

I don't agree your opinion on the performance and quality Jaguar v Mercedes

Who cares Pat? I wasn't asking you to agree.

I drive German for preference, and many reliability surveys support my choice. Mrs likes Japanese...

Do they? There are plenty of links which show German equipment to be vastly over rated and as susceptible to certain failures as other brands - anyone whose had experience with BMW timing chains/crank sprockets or blown turbos, or Merc V6s, or VW DMFs, to name just a few, will disagree with you. When it comes to heavier commercial engines, the examples are even starker. The thing about German kit is that when it fails, it is expensive to repair, which often makes the experience of a failed "quality product" even worse. But then posting links only shows I can google, Pat, it shows little else. If you want to get into a discussion about why certain components or designs fail, go ahead. I'm up for it if you are. I suspect somehow though, you won't do that, because you haven't actually got a fecking clue, you just google stuff

As for what car your missus likes, good for her. Somehow, its not her choice of car I pity her for

[Borchester]

No Gerry, thats fecking bullshit. He was guffawing  about ...

I pointed out to him that Germany, the nation with the biggest reputation for advant guarde quality, had at least one manufacturer still using an out of date pre war designed engine in its products

So unless you can provide a quote where I tried to "make out that the UK industry was high tech", then feck off back under your stone

Self praise is no recommendation, but I grew up in post war era and by the time I finished my time and provided that there was a source of iron ore nearby, I reckon that had I been shipwrecked on a desert island I would have know enough to build a boat to escape and with a double acting Doxford engine to power it.

I wouldn't. I would probably have sat and enjoyed the sunshine and hula hula girls and not been overly fussed about being rescued. So one way and another I figured that that I was a pretty skilled worker. Something that Pat does not appear to have studied when he took his degree in cliches, is that any British ship that docked in a German port would invariably be  visited by recruiters inviting the engineers to take part in the country's economic miracle.

[DeppityDawg]

If you missed it patman said the UK should have invested post war in high skilled jobs, then the dawg came back with personal insults and trying to make out that the UK industry was high tech.

No Gerry, thats fecking bullshit. He was guffawing  about ...

bread and butter motor vehicles to pre-war specs to flog to the dominions

I pointed out to him that Germany, the nation with the biggest reputation for advant guarde quality, had at least one manufacturer still using an out of date pre war designed engine in its products

So unless you can provide a quote where I tried to "make out that the UK industry was high tech", then feck off back under your stone

[papasmurf]

That used to be part of their charm — now largely overcome, I understand.

That is the propaganda, but to be fair those HOG owners who never let them near an HD dealer and  who service them, themselves have little problems apart from those built in breakdowns like putting the voltage regulator directly where the front wheel will cover it in mud and rainwater.

[patman post]

That could also apply to Hardly Dangerous motorcycles.

That used to be part of their charm — now largely overcome, I understand. But I doubt such a reputation gave Jaguar workers cause to have pride in the product...

[patman post]

Oh. I never thought of that.

So in the 1940s to 1970s folk were using steam trains and motor cars and metal bashing so there was plenty of work.

And from the early 1920s to the late 1930s  folk were using steam trains and motor cars and metal bashing so there was mass unemployment.

Thanks for clearing that one up Pat.

Not sure what points that dog's breakfast of comments is trying to make, but commentary on UK industrial performance throughout the decades of the twentieth century (particularly the post world war years) are generally in agreement. It's the reasons why that are often disputed — the amount of money the UK received, and what it didn't use it for, isn't.

After WWI and WWII in the UK and US, there were manufacturing companies who'd amassed pots of money, and there was plenty of demand for bread and butter UK products at home and for export. No need for innovation in product design or manufacture. 

After WWI the UK labour force had lost over 1 million workers. Demand at home and overseas continued, but overseas markets for coal were then supplied by other countries. So UK coal output dropped. Miners' pay fell. Then came the General Strike followed by the collapse of the overheated US economy, which was felt around the industrialised world. 

The WWII aftermath was similar in the UK — firms making war supplies had plenty of money to divert to peace-time goods manufacture. Demand, rationing and clearing up the wartime debris kept employment fairly high. But this time the US boom, fuelled by military spending, continued through the decades. The UK's large portion of Marshall Aid, plus Labour's begging for more money, went on military spending and daily housekeeping. Little was invested in upgrading the infrastructure — eg, in 1958 there were 12,000 people who'd been waiting for more than three years to have a telephone installed. 
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1958-06-12/debates/cbba57e9-1f16-4f64-9721-12b07b0d0419/TelephoneWaitingList 

At that time the UK continued to maintain 615,000 regular military personnel. It now spends billions on Nuclear Weapons...

[papasmurf]

if you want to drive a Jaguar, buy two -- one of them will always be in the shop. 

That could also apply to Hardly Dangerous motorcycles.

[patman post]

Oh do feck off Lord Snooty you snobby ****. Elite prestige R&D what? When German quality like VW were still using an air cooled.engine designed before WW2 in the beetle until the late 70s, and Merc engines were no faster or reliable than jags. You wouldn't even know what a machine tool was if someone hit you over the head with one, you daft ****

Seems like your knowledge of automotive engineering is somewhat patchy. Are you sure your brain is not swamped by patriotic fervour?   

The VW air-cooled engine was the basis of the Porsche power plant from the Porsche 356 right up to the 1998 Porsche 911. The 1998 24-hour Le Mans overall win for a Porsche 911 was its last air-cooled outing — its 2015 win was a 919 hybrid. 

I don't agree your opinion on the performance and quality Jaguar v Mercedes — although I guess it depends which Jag manufacturer you're comparing Mercedes with: Swallow Sidecars, BMC, nationalised Leyland, Ford, or Tata.   

"Jaguar has has been plagued with the issue of dependability for some time now. Although they are known for their build quality and style, Jaguar has always been considered quite unreliable cars". 
https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-reliable-are-jaguar/ 

IF you are an import-car enthusiast of a certain age, you remember the jokes: if you want to drive a Jaguar, buy two -- one of them will always be in the shop. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/22/automobiles/the-high-life-is-winding-down-for-jaguar-mechanics.html

I drive German for preference, and many reliability surveys support my choice. Mrs likes Japanese...