Assisted dying - Lord Carey

[johnofgwent]

Yes I can understand that but is that because you would not want to do the killing even if it was their choice even if a medic was present?

Ok I will jump in here with the detail. You may have heard this before. Dad was in the hospital side room, and knew he was not leaving it with his eyes open.  In the first year of their medical clinical year every med student shadows a terminally ill patients case to teach them they can't save everyone and to see if they can handle this. Most get an easy case in the early stages. Some get a challenge. A fresh faced young man appeared at dads bedside a few weeks before the end. Mum left him to me as she couldn't handle what he was there for. I'd trained students like him in their pre clinical study years so I knew what this was about. He basically shadowed dad's consultant, ran through the palliative care plan, and it was clear to all he was going to be there at the end. He was there when the pneumonia and emphysema reached the point the pain was so intense a dose of morphine way over that the organs could stand was needed. I stood with him while he ran the calculations, watched him and the consultant prepare the dose and we both watched the consultant set it up. Dad was awake and quite aware this would kill him. He seemed rather relieved. He picked up Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment and began to read from where he had left off. He would not get much more than a few pages. I had a phone call at 5am but despite doing 125 down the M4 and using the ambulance only entrance to save 45 seconds he was gone long before I got there, he'd gone almost before I set off. The med student met me a few hours later. I talked him through the last paragraphs of his reportvfirvhis tutor.  He asked to attend the funeral. I said he was welcome. I had a quick chat with his tutor, and I said as eldest son I suppose the arrangements were now my problem and he was more than welcome if it helped. I did say to the tutor that as a former staff member i'd be worried if he made a habit of this but seeing as he was there pretty much at the end literally I saw nothing wierd in him coming to the wake. AT the wake he and my eldest got on like a house on fire. I swore I'd never think this of anyone but as I stood there I couldn't help it. The phrase "he's a nice enough lad and gas excellent prospects" kept bashing around in my head .....

[johnofgwent]

I am not advocating that people should die in agony who would ?

The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Cardiff in office in January 2006, and his Anglican counterpart. See my previous post. Their whole attitude stank of better they suffer in agony than die in peace

[johnofgwent]

LOL Why leave out Christianity?

I suppose Cromwell was right when he suggested I was being polite.A few weeks after my father died in conditions you would be prosecuted for if you treated a dog like that, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Wales and his Anglican counterpart jointly appeared as the pompous brothers in a Radio 4 Any Questions programme. Their attitude to this subject showed their catastrophic lack of understanding of what was being done in the largest teaching hospital in their home diocese and sonas soon as I arrived home from the client I went to my office and emerged three hours later having emailed Any Questions a detailed piece of my mind. I was too exhausted to wake to hear the show but six of my friends rang me up that afternoon to say My letter was first item on Any Answers and it jammed the response lines and hogged the show. The attitude of those two men to this day imparts me the unshakeabl opinion the "Christian" church has no right to hold a view on this subject. Largely because they have nothing of what I understand to be Christ's teachings about their persons on this subject.

[T00ts]

An overdose of morphine does the job. All pain goes, then breathing is depressed until it stops.

As for taking the dog to the vets, I was far more upset and taking my dog to the vets in February 2015, than my mother dying 3 years ago.
The dog died early, my mother died a few days short of 90.

I mention this because personal experiences have little to do with this process. If someone wants to die because they are in intractable pain, why would you or anyone else say no?

I am not advocating that people should die in agony who would? What is missing is the palliative care. I have spoken only today with other people of faith and interestingly even they with their beliefs have different views. I think back to Jesus in Gethsemane. He suffered every pain and sin that is possible in those hours.  He pleaded with His Father in Heaven to let the cup pass but He accepted it. I believe that we all have to experience our own Gethsemane in some way or another as part of our preparation for Eternal life. We are instructed to follow Him even in this if it is demanded of us. I am not sure we really understand the process of death completely so perhaps there are interventions that make things worse I don't know, but if people are led to believe that it will be an almost pleasant experience then this particular article is quite worrying.

[Barry]

An overdose of morphine does the job. All pain goes, then breathing is depressed until it stops.

As for taking the dog to the vets, I was far more upset and taking my dog to the vets in February 2015, than my mother dying 3 years ago.
The dog died early, my mother died a few days short of 90.

I mention this because personal experiences have little to do with this process. If someone wants to die because they are in intractable pain, why would you or anyone else say no?

[T00ts]

Yes but further into the article it becomes a broader discussion. There is another article I read today which could be more relevant I'll try and find it.

This is the one I was [probably thinking of more. If we think that Assisted Dying is going to be like taking the dog to the vet it isn't so.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10118183/Why-assisted-death-certainly-NOT-think-is.html

[T00ts]

What's your point from the DM article? Because I see he mentions the sad loss of a baby 38 years ago, but I just don't see the relevance of that death in the way we handle terminally ill patients.

I'm still fairly neutral about this. In favour to help people avoid a painful lingering death, but it must be very well managed to avoid malicious intent.

Yes but further into the article it becomes a broader discussion. There is another article I read today which could be more relevant I'll try and find it.

[Barry]

What's your point from the DM article? Because I see he mentions the sad loss of a baby 38 years ago, but I just don't see the relevance of that death in the way we handle terminally ill patients.

I'm still fairly neutral about this. In favour to help people avoid a painful lingering death, but it must be very well managed to avoid malicious intent.

[T00ts]

So it is coming to a vote in the House of Lords. There have been strong arguments on both sides but...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10120009/Archbishop-Canterbury-Justin-Welby-recalls-daughters-death-opposing-Assisted-Dying-Bill.html

[srb7677]

Paul said in Thessalonians "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." so perhaps he was more right wing, but I doubt it.

Well, Lenin said the same thing,

So if you can't work you should starve to death tends to be something adhered to by extremists of both right and left. After all, the Nazis put it into practice quite literally. Does that make Paul a prototype Leninist? Or Nazi? I have heard that he does have something of a reputation for misogyny but cannot say  I have read his contributions extensively for a very long time.

As for Jesus advocating the payment of His taxes, I certainly do not recall him arguing for turning Malta or some such place into a tax haven,

[Barry]

Whereas I believe in Jesus Christ as ancient hippy socialist,

He said render unto Caesar what is his.
He paid his taxes.
He said "The poor will always be with us".

Paul said in Thessalonians "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." so perhaps he was more right wing, but I doubt it.

[srb7677]

...we both believe in Jesus Christ as saviour.

Whereas I believe in Jesus Christ as ancient hippy socialist,

[Barry]

Can we do this again?

We could, but I think we both know where we each stand. Let's not argue, we both believe in Jesus Christ as saviour.

[srb7677]

Personally, He looked to have been a pretty shrewd lad business wise

Well, if either you or I could have figured out a way to have enough food to feed 5000 people, starting with only a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, we'd be minted, .

And wasn't his dad a self-employed carpenter and the proud owner of an ass? (stop sniggering at the back)

Does not that make him the ancient equivalent of white van man?

[T00ts]

I'm sure you have read it before. But read John 3 very carefully. I won't point you to individual verses or you will say I am taking them out of context. 

Can we do this again? Ok I have just read it again and I see why you think the way you do but I can't accept your interpretation as truly logical. I think I have asked you before but if God loves all His children how can He penalise them if they haven't heard the Gospel? Or have died in infancy? Or died before Jesus' life. Do you really believe that the eternal future of every one of us can be determined by what is believed on the death bed? For me it cannot be. My understanding is that God is the fairest, truest, generous but just Father to all of us. He is perfect. I can't see him making those rules that He would know would exclude a huge number of His children from returning to Him. Why the parable of the lost son? Why the parable of the workers in the vineyard all getting the same pay even when some started late in the day? It would not be fair or just.

For me the only feasible interpretation has to be that after death we still have time until resurrection and judgement to realise and accept God the Father and Jesus Christ His Son.

I know I always say don't take them out of context but in a way we need to take the scriptures as a whole. Jesus tended to say things as people were ready to hear them. If you think about it, they had been brought up as Jews believing the old laws, this was a massive change. So many snippets are divulged throughout all of the scriptures and all are very meaningful and more so when linked. So much of it was prophesied in the Old Testament and it has always been the same no matter who recorded it. It's amazing.