How could direct democracy work?

[Thomas]

Like I say we need to look at this carefully and not find ourselves in a worse position.

I cant honestly see how you could be in a worse situation than what you currently have. No one , no one can guarentee better governance in any system as i keep saying , that isnt a reason to stick with what you have.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a better result "next time" is madness as they say. Johnson and his party won in 2019 not because they were universally loved , but simply because the tories jumped on the populist support for brexit where before a large part of them had opposed leaving the EU.

Now you are out ,people are reverting to type , and getting pissed off at the tories . The problem is there isnt any alternative , ie labour are a complete joke and even more hated , so by sticking with what you have for fear of ending up worse , you are merely dishing up more of the same and causing even more frustration among the electorate.

Change will happen in my opinion wether you like it or not , as the younger generations wont keep voting on tribal lines for the same two old joke parties , and you can see that happening in scotland as the old unionist generation who always voted two party die off and the younger generations come online and are prepared to vote for differing parties with differing policies and arent hamstrung like we were at one stage into voting red or blue tory.

[Nick]

It looks to me the majority on here except you are in favour of giving change a chance

Not me, I'm happy with the way it is, I keep getting what I want.

[Nick]

there is a problem where people don't vote because they live in a labour or Tory stronghold.

I believe that is just an excuse and the real reason being they can't be bothered to put their slippers and dressing gown on to go and vote.

[T00ts]

you miss the point.

The snp green coaltion is more represntative of the voting public in scotland proportionally than johnsons conservative government is in england with his 80 seat majority on 43 % of the vote.

The snp and greens got nearly 48 % and 1.3 % of the constituency vote between them , almost half the votes cast (constituency) giving 72 between them of 129 seats.

It could be the worst government or the best government in the world , but its what the public voted for by a more proportional and fairer margin , and they have tocompromise between them on various issues to make things work .

Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination , but its far better than the shambles of democracy that you have.

Oh Thomas I do hate to disagree with you but Sturgeon isn't strong enough on her own and looked around for an ally. You have said yourself in the past that she was slowly wrecking what was a strong party when she became leader and her days were numbered.  But that apart it is not the subject here. Why does everyone quote voting numbers when looking that the majorities? The fanciful notion of making parliament somehow represent everyone's vote and trying to please everyone will of itself fail. It's impossible.

Forgive me not a good moment perhaps but life is going to intrude on me for a while so I  have to go.

[Thomas]

You are making an awful lot of assumptions here. I thought this was a discussion and I am putting the other argument even though I am constantly in both types of minority here. We would be foolish to jump into a change for the sake of it. It has to provide better government but this is not the moment to do it in my view.

It looks to me the majority on here except you are in favour of giving change a chance , while you are urging caution and sticking with what you have .

You were happy to change the status quo regarding brexit , which by and large was a leap into the unknown , so why not change the shambles of a system you have in westmisnter?

You cannot guarentee better government in any system , but you can guarentee a fairer system by changing the two party stitch up you currently have   , so surely thats a starting point we can all agree on?

[Thomas]

  I would agree but with no wish to offend you the SNP/Green alliance is too new to judge yet.

you miss the point.

The snp green coaltion is more represntative of the voting public in scotland proportionally than johnsons conservative government is in england with his 80 seat majority on 43 % of the vote.

The snp and greens got nearly 48 % and 1.3 % of the constituency vote between them , almost half the votes cast (constituency) giving 72 between them of 129 seats.

It could be the worst government or the best government in the world , but its what the public voted for by a more proportional and fairer margin , and they have to compromise between them on various issues to make things work .

Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination , but its far better than the shambles of democracy that you have.

[cromwell]

It seems to me toots is arguing against change for traditions skae , where she has been conditioned over her lifetime to accpet one party out of a two party system winning a large majority of seats on a fraction of electoral support as being the norm , and appears horrified at the thought of a hung parliament where two or more parties have to join in coaltion to govern.

It works acorss europe , and it currently is working in scotland. It seems to me fear of change and nothing more.

...but change happens all the time , wether we like it or not , and the current westmisnter two party system is and has been breaking down for years.

Im not sure what the answer is for your country , but it seems to me westminster is doing the english a disservice.

Maybe I read it different but she didn't seem to be saying a definite no to pr,there is a problem where people don't vote because they live in a labour or Tory stronghold.

That can't be right and there has to be some sort of system where people's votes aren't worthless,can some sort of pr do that? I guess it could,there is do much needs overhauling as with the lords .

Like I say we need to look at this carefully and not find ourselves in a worse position.

The voting system and possible variants should be put to a referendum.

[Sheepy]

It seems to me toots is arguing against change for traditions skae , where she has been conditioned over her lifetime to accpet one party out of a two party system winning a large majority of seats on a fraction of electoral support as being the norm , and appears horrified at the thought of a hung parliament where two or more parties have to join in coaltion to govern.

It works acorss europe , and it currently is working in scotland. It seems to me fear of change and nothing more.

...but change happens all the time , wether we like it or not , and the current westmisnter two party system is and has been breaking down for years.

Im not sure what the answer is for your country , but it seems to me westminster is doing the english a disservice.

Toots is entitled to her opinion, but then I find her points a bit pointless in the the way I have explained, it doesn't matter if you have a hung Parliament if you have Direct Democracy, you can just bypass them anyway. You can also avert many of their very own manufactured crisis.

[T00ts]

It seems to me toots is arguing against change for traditions skae , where she has been conditioned over her lifetime to accpet one party out of a two party system winning a large majority of seats on a fraction of electoral support as being the norm , and appears horrified at the thought of a hung parliament where two or more parties have to join in coaltion to govern.

It works acorss europe , and it currently is working in scotland. It seems to me fear of change and nothing more.

...but change happens all the time , wether we like it or not , and the current westmisnter two party system is and has been breaking down for years.

Im not sure what the answer is for your country , but it seems to me westminster is doing the english a disservice.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions here. I thought this was a discussion and I am putting the other argument even though I am constantly in both types of minority here. We would be foolish to jump into a change for the sake of it. It has to provide better government but this is not the moment to do it in my view. I was brought up staunch Labour or Labour voting parents. My politics have been derived from years of observation and thought but are not changeable even at my great age. Assuming I live long enough to see another GE show me someone prepared to stand up for this country (even against Scotland) and ready to dramatically stunt the NHS and I could easily be persuaded.     

[Thomas]

Traditions sake? no Thomas the system really needs an overhaul and whatever replaces what we've got needs careful consideration and I'm not sure DD is the answer.

It seems to me toots is arguing against change for traditions skae , where she has been conditioned over her lifetime to accpet one party out of a two party system winning a large majority of seats on a fraction of electoral support as being the norm , and appears horrified at the thought of a hung parliament where two or more parties have to join in coaltion to govern.

It works acorss europe , and it currently is working in scotland. It seems to me fear of change and nothing more.

...but change happens all the time , wether we like it or not , and the current westmisnter two party system is and has been breaking down for years.

Im not sure what the answer is for your country , but it seems to me westminster is doing the english a disservice.

[T00ts]

It wouldn't.

Hung parliaments mean that the other chap feels as strongly about the matter as you do, so the only solution is to get together like like civilised men and women and hammer out a compromise.

...and that would make the electorate happy would it? Compromise is the one thing that is missing in society on a major scale. At some point whether people talk for ever or not there will come a point even in HofC where it will be put to a vote. This will create the same horse trading throughout the house. It sounds good but meanwhile  the king is still dancing around naked.

Its not down to me to tell you how to change your country for the better , as you know my politics and i want out of it.

It seems to me though as an outsider looking in , you have two parties dominating the political scene the vast majority of english folk can't stand and dont vote for , and so surely this warrants looking at rather than throwing fences in the road to stop change.

There isnt a "perfect" political system , and i dont belive anyone is saying there is , all have pitfalls.

What i believe though is the current westmisnter system is an embarressment to democracy and needs looked at .

  I would agree but with no wish to offend you the SNP/Green alliance is too new to judge yet. Give it time - they are still on honeymoon and we all know why Sturgeon went for it. But your post as a whole has ignored what I feel are the exceptional circumstances that has created this parliament. Didn't we have a very high turnout at the last GE? I forget numbers  but I feel sure that it was a resounding vote compared to earlier ones.

People wanted it settled. They were fed up with the wrangling both in and out of Westminster and had an innate sense of fairness. Yes no government should be without opposition,  but goodness me just look at those on all the opposition benches there is nothing there.

[Sheepy]

Traditions sake? no Thomas the system really needs an overhaul and whatever replaces what we've got needs careful consideration and I'm not sure DD is the answer.

It will be eventually, it is a shame things take this long for people to become aware, I am not being hard on anyone because they need to see it for themselves. That way it is a majority decision not a usual minority thinking they speak for everyone.

[cromwell]

I agree sheep. The greens and snp are in coalition in scotland and the sky hasnt fallen on anyones heads. The westmisnter party are reduced to minor roles , and there isnt riots on the streets.

Another embarresing fact for the mother of all democracies is the fact england and iran are the only two nations on earth that have clerics in one of thier legislative chambers , as well as a country that makes up 40 % of these islands with a population of 55 million has the second largest legislature in the world.

It seems to me the arguments are merely carrying on with the current shambles for "traditions sake" and nothing else.

Traditions sake? no Thomas the system really needs an overhaul and whatever replaces what we've got needs careful consideration and I'm not sure DD is the answer.

[Thomas]

You are being a tad unfair on me Thomas. All I am asking is exactly what would change? What would actually improve? A lot of what you say is true about the current situation but I don't think it is all down to parliament or the 2 party system.

Its not down to me to tell you how to change your country for the better , as you know my politics and i want out of it.

It seems to me though as an outsider looking in , you have two parties dominating the political scene the vast majority of english folk cant stand and dont vote for , and so surely this warrants looking at rather than throwing fences in the road to stop change.

There isnt a "perfect" political system , and i dont belive anyone is saying there is , all have pitfalls.

What i believe though is the current westmisnter system is an embarressment to democracy and needs looked at .

[Thomas]

I would guess the vast majority of the electorate are more than ready to change things, it has always been a matter of when will they learn voting for the Westminster party changes nothing.

I agree sheep. The greens and snp are in coalition in scotland and the sky hasnt fallen on anyones heads. The westmisnter party are reduced to minor roles , and there isnt riots on the streets.

Another embarresing fact for the mother of all democracies is the fact england and iran are the only two nations on earth that have clerics in one of thier legislative chambers , as well as a country that makes up 40 % of these islands with a population of 55 million has the second largest legislature in the world.

It seems to me the arguments are merely carrying on with the current shambles for "traditions sake" and nothing else.