How could direct democracy work?

[Borchester]

I'm happy voting for a representative. I've been in Union where we were campaigned at to vote for delegates and various motions and referendums. The outcomes were invariably decided by highly orchestrated activists — Momentum is an example.

Which is and always has been a problem.

Decisions are made by those who show up and as often as not, they don't.

When I was a union rep a major problem was getting a quorum for meetings. The membership was large and the quorums small, but my colleagues general disinclination to
actually get off their arses and turn up meant that most resolutions were passed by cadres of the Socialist Workers party.

[patman post]

I'm happy voting for a representative. I've been in Union where we were campaigned at to vote for delegates and various motions and referendums. The outcomes were invariably decided by highly orchestrated activists — Momentum is an example.


While I can see the need for some reforms in elections, I don't see the need for continual referendums. Better to elect representatives, who can move rapidly to adapt, present new, or scrap plans when situations demand. And have fewer representatives. 


There's plenty of chances for pressure groups with pet projects to win over public opinion that can influence legislation...

[Barry]

srb is repeating the old remainer type tripe that the electorate are too thick to be trusted with making decisions about our political future. The problem with that is that if it were true we should not be allowed a vote at all.

I would like a vote on some moral issues, such as abortion time limits, such as the age of consent for hetero/homo relationships.
Age of consent for trans decisions.
Whether NHS should be used for trans surgery.
Whether Northern Ireland should be practically annexed by the EU.

Other people might like a say about the Banking system, bitcoin, Internet freedoms, all things that affect society as a whole.

We are not stupid, we are the electorate, we deserve a say in the running of the country which is meaningful.
Currently the government are breaking their manifestos so there should be a general election as they have betrayed their mandate.

[T00ts]

For goodness sake Sheeps - did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning? We don't agree- let it go .

[Sheepy]

Oh sorry my mistake - I didn't have you marked down as a bit of a creep.

How is that a coherent statement? when you have written so much nonsense in this thread? you said I would need a nation of political geniuses or such like, I said it each policy would stand on its own merit, so in actual fact no I don't need a nation of geniuses each policy stands on its own merits. As explained before each vote.

[T00ts]

LOL is that it? I guess so, you might like to think of something coherent.

Oh sorry my mistake - I didn't have you marked down as a bit of a creep.

[Sheepy]

How rude. Have you lost the argument sir? Trash is in the eye of the beholder I believe.

LOL is that it? I guess so, you might like to think of something coherent.

[T00ts]

Do better than what? you have spent your time writing pages of nonsense to defend the indefensible and all I did was wait my moment until you all had your say and pointed out you were all talking trash.

How rude. Have you lost the argument sir? Trash is in the eye of the beholder I believe.

[Sheepy]

I can turn the other cheek Sheeps - you'll have to do better than that! 

Do better than what? you have spent your time writing pages of nonsense to defend the indefensible and all I did was wait my moment until you all had your say and pointed out you were all talking trash.

[T00ts]

Which I pointed out it was utter Bullshine.

I can turn the other cheek Sheeps - you'll have to do better than that! 

[Sheepy]

An excellent post. You have written what I have been trying to say in a very calm way and I think the most honest. It doesn't matter which side of the centre line we are if there is to be any constructive change there has to be a guarantee of it being an improvement. So far it all seems pie in the sky. You have hit the nail on the head.

Which I pointed out it was utter Bullshine.

[T00ts]

The problem with direct democracy is that most people won't vote unless they believe any proposall is something that a) will benefit them or their family financially, b) will make them or their familly worse off financially, or c) involves something that the tabloids can encourage them to emote against.

It will result in people voting for endless tax cuts for the masses, plus endless spending increases on everything they like, which will of course lead before long to financial disaster. Then the public will vote through measures to pass the blame onto target groups and try to make them pay with punitive taxes or targeted spending cuts. Mob rule via the ballot box, division, and hate will become endemic. And then all it will take is some charismatic strong man promising to right all wrongs if he is given full powers, and before we know it the public would have voted away their direct democracy and empowered a dictator.

We need to be honest here. Not all voters are intelligent or politically knowledgeable. There is an idiot vote out there large enough to make it difficult under FPTP for either main party to win without the support of at least some of it. Giving them a direct vote on all legislation would be dangerous. Most of them would never read it. They would simply believe what the Sun, Mail, Express, and Mirror told them it said, ignoring the fact that all of these rags have an agenda of some kind.

No, although our politicians are mostly a sorry bunch, at least they are all politically knowledgeable and intelligent enough to think for themselves and question what they are told, and can put together some sort of costed and coherent program via a manifesto.

The increasing failure of and distrust in politics in the UK is a problem. As is our lack of written constitutional safeguards. It would be all too easy to drag us down the road of some kind of populist fascism as in Hungary when faith in democracy itself is so damaged, and faith in the goodwill and integrity of our leaders so justifiably lacking. But somehow we need to sort these problems out, reforming our democracy so that we really are a full democracy, and doing something about electing honest politicians in the first place. Both main parties are led by blatant liars right now.

But we need to avoid cures that would be even worse than the disease.

An excellent post. You have written what I have been trying to say in a very calm way and I think the most honest. It doesn't matter which side of the centre line we are if there is to be any constructive change there has to be a guarantee of it being an improvement. So far it all seems pie in the sky. You have hit the nail on the head.

[Sheepy]

https://directdemocrats.com/2021/07/09/this-is-how-direct-democracy-works-in-switzerland-and-would-work-in-your-country/
Deny it all you like; we will get there eventually.
Even Barrys World Economic Forum have noticed we mean business. Because they think because the Conservatives jumped on the bandwagon they would as well. Not very advisable unless you can take losing on the chin.
Probably best in these situations that you read the label before you are told what is what. As one media outlet once said, those feckers are fearless, we are doomed.

[Nick]

but i think there is a massive appetite for change.

Don't agree Thomas.

99% of the electorate don't know FPTP, PR or DD even exist. And asked the question about change would most likely not have a scooby. Amongst us types maybe but we are a tiny percentage.

[srb7677]

The problem with direct democracy is that most people won't vote unless they believe any proposall is something that a) will benefit them or their family financially, b) will make them or their familly worse off financially, or c) involves something that the tabloids can encourage them to emote against.

It will result in people voting for endless tax cuts for the masses, plus endless spending increases on everything they like, which will of course lead before long to financial disaster. Then the public will vote through measures to pass the blame onto target groups and try to make them pay with punitive taxes or targeted spending cuts. Mob rule via the ballot box, division, and hate will become endemic. And then all it will take is some charismatic strong man promising to right all wrongs if he is given full powers, and before we know it the public would have voted away their direct democracy and empowered a dictator.

We need to be honest here. Not all voters are intelligent or politically knowledgeable. There is an idiot vote out there large enough to make it difficult under FPTP for either main party to win without the support of at least some of it. Giving them a direct vote on all legislation would be dangerous. Most of them would never read it. They would simply believe what the Sun, Mail, Express, and Mirror told them it said, ignoring the fact that all of these rags have an agenda of some kind.

No, although our politicians are mostly a sorry bunch, at least they are all politically knowledgeable and intelligent enough to think for themselves and question what they are told, and can put together some sort of costed and coherent program via a manifesto.

The increasing failure of and distrust in politics in the UK is a problem. As is our lack of written constitutional safeguards. It would be all too easy to drag us down the road of some kind of populist fascism as in Hungary when faith in democracy itself is so damaged, and faith in the goodwill and integrity of our leaders so justifiably lacking. But somehow we need to sort these problems out, reforming our democracy so that we really are a full democracy, and doing something about electing honest politicians in the first place. Both main parties are led by blatant liars right now.

But we need to avoid cures that would be even worse than the disease.