How could direct democracy work?

[T00ts]

I was just looking on my list, I couldn't find where it said I should care what Toots thinks, all it said is you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is Ealing nonsense.

[Sheepy]

Sadly, I have no faith in the ability of Direct Democracy to deliver anything other than more chaos, anarchy and mob hysteria rule. It seems that the ultimate effect of digital media has been to create a series of tailor made echo chambers that moves everything to the extreme (woke liberal angst on one side and rabid little England on the other).
What the country needs is leadership, by real leaders. Instead we have a parliament filled with the lawyers and lobbyists mouthpieces of our plutocrat overlords.
Nothing short of full on regime change is going to change a single thing.

That made me laugh, have you anyone in mind for this powerful position as esteemed and great leader? Maybe we could import one?

[Sampanviking]

Sadly, I have no faith in the ability of Direct Democracy to deliver anything other than more chaos, anarchy and mob hysteria rule. It seems that the ultimate effect of digital media has been to create a series of tailor made echo chambers that moves everything to the extreme (woke liberal angst on one side and rabid little England on the other).
What the country needs is leadership, by real leaders. Instead we have a parliament filled with the lawyers and lobbyists mouthpieces of our plutocrat overlords.
Nothing short of full on regime change is going to change a single thing.

[Sheepy]

I am getting a bit depressed with people assuming what I think.

I was just looking on my list, I couldn't find where it said I should care what Toots thinks, all it said is you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is Ealing nonsense.

[T00ts]

Sorry toots , i know you are specifically replying to sheepy regarding DD , but picking you up on this comment , that s exactly what happend in scotland and wales post labours election in 1997.

Why is it implied as an impending disaster for england to have a new untried political system , and something that must be dismissed out of hand  , when labour managed just that over the course of two years in my country in the late 90`s?

The ams system was largely unknown and untried , yet labour got it up and running without armageddon death and destruction sweeping scotland and wales away. I would argue its proportionally more fairer a system by a country mile than the anti democratic disaster of fptp in your country.

Are you suggesting England uniquely is uncapable of trying a new and essentially untested political system? I think you do your own country down , and i seem to have more confidence in change for the better than you do.

Ams isnt perfect, far from it , but it works , and has worked reasonably well for 20 years .

You seem to be stubbornly refusing to contemplate change incase something bad happens , yet as i said to you before were more than happy to go out on a limb and vote out the EU and take a wild stab in the dark.?

I think deep down you simply want uk/english politics to return to some rose tinted cherry picked imaginary time of the past that never existed , rather than moving forward .

Whats your suggestion for the way forward politically speaking if you dont mind me asking rather than continually throwing obstacles in the path of change?

I am getting a bit depressed with people assuming what I think. Ok I'll give it another go but I warn you Thomas that I am very aware of seemingly innocent tactics of asking what on the surface looks like a genuine question when all the time I suspect you really just want to have a go - even if it is ever so subtle to avoid the rules. When I first arrived here you frightened me and over time I have realised that first impressions are usually right.

I still scare easily and it's no mean feat to be here a) as a woman and b) as a Conservative. I see what others do by turning on others with different or original views and I try to be polite. If I can't I don't post and lately I have posted much less. I am here because I am interested in politics and at times learn a lot, I am not here to point score or change anyone's mind.

So to your question. No I am not averse to change at all. As you rightly pointed out I was on the side of major change with Brexit.  What I am against is lemmings who all run off a cliff because some fool at the front started a panic. DD is the subject here, it is obviously near to Sheeps heart and something he follows keenly. Good for him. What I am saying is that there is no model anywhere in the world using it and that makes me more than cautious. I am not the only one who has voiced that caution but it seems I am the easy target. I don't know how your Scottish system works. You say it has worked well. But what I see is that it has worked well for you so you are happy. The party that wants independence is in power. If Conservatives were in the lead on that same system you would be spitting feathers and possibly want DD. Perhaps Blair had that in mind when he sorted you out 20 years ago.

I have looked briefly at all the links that Sheeps has now put in a new thread to support his argument again good for him. All I can see is a lot of airy fairy possibilities but as yet no concrete evidence or plan as to how it might work. It looks as though they are looking for election - if they are successful we will see.

Lastly I am a Conservative brought up as Labour who made my own decisions much to my parent's disgust at the time. I believe in God which is also largely scorned here but I do make my own mind up in my own time. I live in this world that is rapidly turning into the ghastly mess that has been prophesied since the beginning of time. I try very hard not to live by it's measures as the rules I try to follow are very much higher. I think that suggests that I am very much my own person and very prepared to change. Enough!

[Thomas]

Thomas, I lack sufficient time to quote you sentence for sentence and respond at length.

But you do make a lot of good points. Overall I think I can summarise by saying that you see fewer dangers than I do in direct democracy, and believe that a written constitution with built in safeguards should suffice. But Weimar Germany had a witten constitution with built in safeguards and looked what happened there. A written constitution is far better than an unwritten one but it does not actually guarantee anything that cannot be undone.

agaain im not suggesting a political utopia of perfection , i think the conversation is going along the lines of taking a step towards something better than what currently exists at westmisnter.

There seems to be this unspoken but implied rule that if you can't get 100 % perfection , then you cant have change. Change happens wether we like it or not.

I fully accept your point that the media holds far less sway than it did but it is still a powerful influence upon certain demographics. It's ability to whip up malice in some should not be under-estimated. The fact that newsprint media is mostly far more hostile to the left than it is to the right just makes those of us on the receiving end of this naturally more acutely aware of it. Whilst it's malign influence can be and often is overstated by the left, we cannot afford to underestimate it either.

I take on board your points but again i think the left in england tend to over exaggerate.

Labour  , or should i say the british left , long controlled the media in scotland. It didnt stop people laughing at the print propaganda and voting snp , so im not sure why the print media is some unscalable obstacle for the "left" in England.

Could it be that it isnt the print media in england , but the fact the message being sold by the left in england isnt wanted?

But I do think we agree on the central thrust of your post. That the current political system in Westminster is broken beyond repair, that those within it lie regularly with virtual impunity, and that we need to replace it with something better. Direct democracy is one solution being put forward here, but  I fear that in  practice it is likely to be no better and probably even worse, and potentially even more open to abuse.

Fair enough. You seem open minded more widely to change , just not maybe DD.

My preferred change would involve PR for both local and general elections, replacement of the Lords, aka the House of Cronies with an elected second chamber, and an elected head of state, all fully backed up by a written constitution. One further suggestion that requires more thought which I will just put out there would include criminalising lying in public office and in parliament, unless a public interest defence can be proven. I would also make it mandatory to hold a byelection if a sitting MP changes party. And outlaw high office holders from working at senior levels in big business or as a lobbyist until at least 10 years after leaving office. I also think the whole process of expenses needs massive overhall and curtailment. Their purchases of second homes should not be paid for by us. If they live in London they can commute like so many others. If they live outside London they should have rental accommodation only paid for in the capital. If occasionally one of them gets an eviction notice for no good reason, then they'll get a taste of what many other private renters have to put up with. Ideally, MPs should have to have had employment outside the realms of politics for at least 10 years before being allowed to stand for parliament, but am unsure whether that would be too draconian to mandate by law, or how workable it would be.. I certainly do not think MPs should be allowed to have second jobs. We are paying them a decent full time wage. They should do it full time.

again not too much in there to disagree with.

[Thomas]

Imagine the disaster a whole new untried electoral system could create. We would be mad to even contemplate it.

Sorry toots , i know you are specifically replying to sheepy regarding DD , but picking you up on this comment , that s exactly what happend in scotland and wales post labours election in 1997.

Why is it implied as an impending disaster for england to have a new untried political system , and something that must be dismissed out of hand  , when labour managed just that over the course of two years in my country in the late 90`s?

The ams system was largely unknown and untried , yet labour got it up and running without armageddon death and destruction sweeping scotland and wales away. I would argue its proportionally more fairer a system by a country mile than the anti democratic disaster of fptp in your country.

Are you suggesting England uniquely is uncapable of trying a new and essentially untested political system? I think you do your own country down , and i seem to have more confidence in change for the better than you do.

Ams isnt perfect, far from it , but it works , and has worked reasonably well for 20 years .

You seem to be stubbornly refusing to contemplate change incase something bad happens , yet as i said to you before were more than happy to go out on a limb and vote out the EU and take a wild stab in the dark.?

I think deep down you simply want uk/english politics to return to some rose tinted cherry picked imaginary time of the past that never existed , rather than moving forward .

Whats your suggestion for the way forward politically speaking if you dont mind me asking rather than continually throwing obstacles in the path of change?

[Sheepy]

There is no comparison. We all could see what the EU was - there is no model for DD. We have enough problems with unexpected consequences on simple legislation. Imagine the disaster a whole new untried electoral system could create. We would be mad to even contemplate it. If change is wanted there are other models we could base it on without going out on a complete limb.

I told you I am not spending my days arguing about it, there is a comparison and there is no way it cannot be taken to another level. Which the Alba party will get all the help it requires. The Scots are not my enemy and never have been. 

Mod edit
Cromwell

[T00ts]

I have told you all many times actions speak louder than words, just like you all said we would never get an EU referendum, you had to eat those and you may well be eating those latest ones.

There is no comparison. We all could see what the EU was - there is no model for DD. We have enough problems with unexpected consequences on simple legislation. Imagine the disaster a whole new untried electoral system could create. We would be mad to even contemplate it. If change is wanted there are other models we could base it on without going out on a complete limb.

[Sheepy]

There is none because it is an obviously daft idea when you think rationally about it for very long. If Sheepy can cite an example of a country run this way, I'm all ears.

I have told you all many times actions speak louder than words, just like you all said we would never get an EU referendum, you had to eat those and you may well be eating those latest ones.

[srb7677]

Having looked around I cannot find one country that uses DD to see how it works.

There is none because it is an obviously daft idea when you think rationally about it for very long. If Sheepy can cite an example of a country run this way, I'm all ears.

[T00ts]

Having looked around I cannot find one country that uses DD to see how it works.

[Sheepy]

though direct democracy holds too many potential dangers to be certain that it would not be even worse.

Absolute rubbish, which the Alba party will set out to prove you wrong. By building consensus at local level. May the forces of democracy give them a fair wind.

[srb7677]

All true.

Perhaps someone could explain how we could end up with a worse system than the utterly useless broken one we have now.

In democratic terms it is almost impossible to imagine anything worse than what we have now, though direct democracy holds too many potential dangers to be certain that it would not be even worse. I suppose if we were an Islamic republic, or a fascist dictatorship, or a Stalinist nightmare, that would be worse.

But insofar as functioning demovracies go, our system is totally unfit for purpose, and needs radical reform.

[Sheepy]

Perhaps someone could explain how we could end up with a worse system than the utterly useless broken one we have now.

When faced with the reality of it all, not their make-believe politics, nobody in their right mind could. But then at the speed the Westminster party are creating mental health problems there won't be anybody left in their right mind.