How could direct democracy work?

[Sheepy]

The naivete screems out at me. People will vote for anything that gives them more money or reduces their taxes. They will also vote for anything that increases spending on whatever they like. We'll be bankrupt within a few years. If you cannot see that that will happen you are kidding yourself. I mean walk out into the street right now and chat to the first ten people you meet. Then having done so, ask if you can rely upon all of them voting sensibly or even recognising what is a good policy or not. And ask yourself how many of them will actually read any proposed legislation. You and I surely both know that the vast majority of people will rely upon a biased media telling them what it says.

Yes we need drastic change, but direct democracy is the fool's gold at the end of the rainbow.

But then I have already explained I am not here to argue about it, we will have it come the end. How you vote for each policy is your own choice, on its own merits.

[srb7677]

I don't mind so much, they already know what we can achieve if we put our minds to it, we are not going to rush anything, we know how they work and are just letting them lie their way through it is what the Westminster party does, it will always have a few minions. It doesn't matter how we get direct democracy or who brings it in, once you have it you get one vote one person. For any policy to get a majority it will need to be good enough.

The naivete screems out at me. People will vote for anything that gives them more money or reduces their taxes. They will also vote for anything that increases spending on whatever they like. We'll be bankrupt within a few years. If you cannot see that that will happen you are kidding yourself. I mean walk out into the street right now and chat to the first ten people you meet. Then having done so, ask if you can rely upon all of them voting sensibly or even recognising what is a good policy or not. And ask yourself how many of them will actually read any proposed legislation. You and I surely both know that the vast majority of people will rely upon a biased media telling them what it says.

Yes we need drastic change, but direct democracy is the fool's gold at the end of the rainbow.

[Sampanviking]

I'll make an observation as an ordinary member here,so ok political discussion can become heated.

We at the moment have only one active female member here,there was a time ago there were three.

Mars and Venus and all that I would hope that the male of the species could show more restraint to our lone female member.

Suddenly a plumby upper crust accent rings out
"Good Lord! Theres a woman in here!"
Instant silence descends, waiters stand with their jaws hanging low
The only sound is of silver trays and brandy glasses hitting the floor.....

[Sheepy]

We have left wing populists, right wing populists, middle of the road populists, wacky populists, not so wacky populists, it really doesn't matter the goal is all the same thing. Direct Democracy.

[Sheepy]

ok , so you mock sheepy yet again as pie in the sky proposals

I don't mind so much, they already know what we can achieve if we put our minds to it, we are not going to rush anything, we know how they work and are just letting them lie their way through it is what the Westminster party does, it will always have a few minions. It doesn't matter how we get direct democracy or who brings it in, once you have it you get one vote one person. For any policy to get a majority it will need to be good enough.

[srb7677]

I'll make an observation as an ordinary member here,so ok political discussion can become heated.

We at the moment have only one active female member here,there was a time ago there were three.

Mars and Venus and all that I would hope that the male of the species could show more restraint to our lone female member.

I think it is safe to say that she and I are on very different sides of the political and ideological fence, but she always debates in a good-mannered and respectful way without any outward displays of animosity. I try - and hope I succeed in reciprocating that with her. She comes across as a thoroughly decent human being. Some of the alpha males around here could learn a thing or two. I myself am no alpha male,  but everyone knows - if I am honest - that I have not always debated with others with the same respect she always shows.

I respect her for all that.

[srb7677]

...views that are more palatable to the UK's generally more Right of Centre electorate.

That is a convenient yet lazy and somewhat false assumption, beloved of right wingers.

Yes, majority opinion is right of centre on some issues, but on many others it is left of centre. When asked, between two thirds and three quarters of the electorate like many of the policies of Labour's 2017 manifesto, for example. And if you dispute that fact I can easily supply the polling evidence. It is not hard to find.

The reason Labour has been out of power so long and so often is twofold. It is often at war with itself, as it is right now. And the left of centre vote is divided, with some of it going to Plaid or the SNP, some of it going to the Lib Dems and some of it to the Greens. Together, all these often outpoll the Tories. But that counts for nothing under FPTP  if they are all also standing against each other.

[T00ts]

Message received and understood.

No more trying to look down the front of Toot's frock

Thank you - much appreciated! That's the first giggle I have had for a while!

[Borchester]

I'll make an observation as an ordinary member here,so ok political discussion can become heated.

We at the moment have only one active female member here,there was a time ago there were three.

Mars and Venus and all that I would hope that the male of the species could show more restraint to our lone female member.

Message received and understood.

No more trying to look down the front of Toot's frock

[Thomas]

I am getting a bit depressed with people assuming what I think. Ok I'll give it another go but I warn you Thomas that I am very aware of seemingly innocent tactics of asking what on the surface looks like a genuine question when all the time I suspect you really just want to have a go - even if it is ever so subtle to avoid the rules. When I first arrived here you frightened me and over time I have realised that first impressions are usually right.

I still scare easily and it's no mean feat to be here a) as a woman and b) as a Conservative. I see what others do by turning on others with different or original views and I try to be polite. If I can't I don't post and lately I have posted much less. I am here because I am interested in politics and at times learn a lot, I am not here to point score or change anyone's mind.

Sigh#

With respect toots , earlier on in this thread you were "implying" barry and i were demeaning you as a "mere" woman and not giving you the equal respect that we apprently would a man , and here you are hiding behind being a woman and playing the shrinking violet?

I have been nothing but polite and respectefull to you on this forum , we have had this conversation before , and im not going to give any further credibility to it by discussing it further.

This is a debating forum , surely we can disagree and hold a debate without you implying im somehow terrorising you by merely asking a polite question?

What I am against is lemmings who all run off a cliff because some fool at the front started a panic

Sure , and many remainers maintain thats what brexiters like yourself are , lemmings running off the white cliffs of dover because some fool called farage started a panic about the EU.

Its all a matter of perspective.

DD is the subject here, it is obviously near to Sheeps heart and something he follows keenly.

It is , and i have qualified the fact while i dont want to get fully hung up on DD , as there are many differing forms of political change , i respect sheepy and barry at least forwarding a solution while many of us might not necessarily agree with the nuts and bolts of what is being proposed , most of us i think are open minded enough to agree change is needed apart from yourself it seems.

I am not the only one who has voiced that caution but it seems I am the easy target

Im sure you have seen my in depth posts debating steve further back in this thread regarding his caution , so im not sure why you feel you are being singled out.

Steve at least agrees change is needed while not supporting DD , he at least has offered solution rather than criticising hence why i asked what are your suggestions if any?

. I don't know how your Scottish system works. You say it has worked well. But what I see is that it has worked well for you so you are happy. The party that wants independence is in power. If Conservatives were in the lead on that same system you would be spitting feathers and possibly want DD. Perhaps Blair had that in mind when he sorted you out 20 years ago.

Sorry , but once again with respect and as polite as possible this is nonsense and i will explain why.

The SNP have done well out of the ams system , and as i have pointed out before , got something like 49 % of the seats based on 48 % of the constituency vote and 40 % of the regional vote.

In your parliament , in the scottish seats under your outdated unfair and antiquated system , the snp did EVEN BETTER and  got a disproportional 82% of the scottish seats based on 45 % of the vote.

So if its as simple as championing a system that works unfairly in our favour as you imply , i wouldnt be questioning FPTP would i???

I have looked briefly at all the links that Sheeps has now put in a new thread to support his argument again good for him. All I can see is a lot of airy fairy possibilities but as yet no concrete evidence or plan as to how it might work. It looks as though they are looking for election - if they are successful we will see.

ok , so you mock sheepy yet again as pie in the sky proposals , fair enough thats your opinion , but again i ask , what do you propose ar are you content with the status quo as i suggested earlier? If you arent content , what do you suggest?

[patman post]

Sadly, I have no faith in the ability of Direct Democracy to deliver anything other than more chaos, anarchy and mob hysteria rule. It seems that the ultimate effect of digital media has been to create a series of tailor made echo chambers that moves everything to the extreme (woke liberal angst on one side and rabid little England on the other).
What the country needs is leadership, by real leaders. Instead we have a parliament filled with the lawyers and lobbyists mouthpieces of our plutocrat overlords.
Nothing short of full on regime change is going to change a single thing.

Totally agree (apart from the regime change idea). 

Although I admit the current FPTP and party systems are far from perfect, it does seem to me that they have the effect of smoothing out and moderating the extremes in favour of views that are more palatable to the UK's generally more Right of Centre electorate. That's why Labour has been out of power for so long, and why so many previously solid Labour seats have shifted to the Conservatives. 

Seems to me many regular Labour voters became sick of being constantly told by Labour that they are down trodden proles, who live in industrial wastelands and are class traitors for working the hours they wanted at the new jobs on offer. I reckon many reacted to Boris's offer of pride and hope in the same way they did to Blair's in 1997.

What I find lacking now are identifiable teams of able and inspiring doers from which parties can draw inspiring leaders and lieutenants to form good governments — surely the UK can do better than just Boris...?

[cromwell]

I guess we would have too, given that there's b****r all home grown candidates to choose from.
Still someone half Chinese and half Romanian might fit the bill and may not even be questioned as an import, seeing how well it works for Tennis.
Nice girl that Emma btw and speaks very beautiful Bei Dong Mandarin.

Well nice as she is we don't require a political Strong man.....or Woman.

[Sampanviking]

That made me laugh, have you anyone in mind for this powerful position as esteemed and great leader? Maybe we could import one?

I guess we would have too, given that there's b****r all home grown candidates to choose from.
Still someone half Chinese and half Romanian might fit the bill and may not even be questioned as an import, seeing how well it works for Tennis.
Nice girl that Emma btw and speaks very beautiful Bei Dong Mandarin.

[Sheepy]

I'll make an observation as an ordinary member here,so ok political discussion can become heated.

We at the moment have only one active female member here,there was a time ago there were three.

Mars and Venus and all that I would hope that the male of the species could show more restraint to our lone female member.

LOL if had a clue about some of the messages I receive from some of our esteemed followers from around the globe, I mean what is even Cat craft, I had to look it up.

[cromwell]

I'll make an observation as an ordinary member here,so ok political discussion can become heated.

We at the moment have only one active female member here,there was a time ago there were three.

Mars and Venus and all that I would hope that the male of the species could show more restraint to our lone female member.