How many NHS wards mothballed...?

[Major Sinic]

Oh dear, Major's imagination has gone into overdrive, with hordes of Hell's Angels revving their Harley Davidsons outside Sinic manor until the noise cause the electric gate to fall down. They then ride into Sinic Manor to ride around the pristin lawns churning them into a quagmire whilst firing shotguns through the windows breaking the candelabra and chandeliers.



 Meanwhile, back in almost reality,

Javert, people all die in the end and the NHS has limited resources. It cannot save us all.

If 200 people turn up at an A&E all expecting treatment at a bed at the same time, why do you think that should be possible to cater for?

Your idea there should be a bed for everyone who needs one is naive and simplistic. The NHS works on a forecast of risk system. If an A&E becomes overrun, or has to close for some reason, people have to be shipped to another centre, which may not then be able to cope.

Oh to live in this Utopia where there is always a bed available in a quiet ward with 3 nurses waiting doing nothing until the new patient arrives.



I wonder how this country would cope in a war situation, where the population currently expects everything it wants (not even needs) on a plate, and now!

:hattip Its the Cornwall Chapter of Motorcycle Smurfs which frighten me! They even pull the wings off butterflies providing of course they are blue ones!

 :hattip Absolutely agree with you.The fellow exists in lala land.

[Major Sinic]

Still, I suppose if you are perfectly happy to accept that you might die because you turned up in hospital with a fully treatable condition at the wrong time, I guess that explains why the NHS is insufficiently funded as people don't want to pay for it.



Think about it - you are basically saying that it's fine for some people to die because the hospital happened to be full that day when they arrived.

What a ridiculous interpretation of what anyone has said. You really are incorrigible accusing posters of saying things that they didn't say! People die in hospital , that's a fact and very rarely does it have anything to do with resources, mainly because hospitals are generally very good at triage. It happens because even with the brilliance of modern medicine and surgery many conditions, illnesses and wounds can not be stabilised, controlled or cured.

[Major Sinic]

Sod it Major, I wanted to say that    

 :hattip

[Barry]

Still, I suppose if you are perfectly happy to accept that you might die because you turned up in hospital with a fully treatable condition at the wrong time, I guess that explains why the NHS is insufficiently funded as people don't want to pay for it.



Think about it - you are basically saying that it's fine for some people to die because the hospital happened to be full that day when they arrived.

You are doing it again, Javert. Telling me what I am saying, when I'm not. You can be an irritant at times.

[Javert]

Oh dear, Major's imagination has gone into overdrive, with hordes of Hell's Angels revving their Harley Davidsons outside Sinic manor until the noise cause the electric gate to fall down. They then ride into Sinic Manor to ride around the pristin lawns churning them into a quagmire whilst firing shotguns through the windows breaking the candelabra and chandeliers.



Meanwhile, back in almost reality,

Javert, people all die in the end and the NHS has limited resources. It cannot save us all.

If 200 people turn up at an A&E all expecting treatment at a bed at the same time, why do you think that should be possible to cater for?

Your idea there should be a bed for everyone who needs one is naive and simplistic. The NHS works on a forecast of risk system. If an A&E becomes overrun, or has to close for some reason, people have to be shipped to another centre, which may not then be able to cope.

Oh to live in this Utopia where there is always a bed available in a quiet ward with 3 nurses waiting doing nothing until the new patient arrives.



I wonder how this country would cope in a war situation, where the population currently expects everything it wants (not even needs) on a plate, and now!

But this is how it was if you go back 20 years or so.  Hospitals still have targets that they should keep a small percentage of their beds unoccupied so that beds are available if there is a sudden surge of patients.  They describe their status in terms of colours - green, amber, red etc.  The difference is that whilst 20 years ago they would meet these targets, today they don't.  



I agree that in the case of a major disaster or public health emergency, there might be a need to send patients to another hospital and those plans should exist, I don't agree that it's impossible to have a hospital system with sufficient beds available to avoid nearly 2000 people every year from dying because they couldn't be moved through the treatment cycle at an acceptable rate.



Also we are conflating the issue of people turning up to A&E who don't need to be there, with the ones who actually do need treatment and need to be admitted.  Those are two separate problems.  



Of course the patients should be triaged acording to need, but according to the articles I posted, even taking that into account, some patients in the severe need are dying because the treatment capacity was not available.



Still, I suppose if you are perfectly happy to accept that you might die because you turned up in hospital with a fully treatable condition at the wrong time, I guess that explains why the NHS is insufficiently funded as people don't want to pay for it.



Think about it - you are basically saying that it's fine for some people to die because the hospital happened to be full that day when they arrived.

[Churchill]

Exactly laying blame at the doors of others is an easy game to play for those who do not understand reality, those who are really ill or badly injured in dire need to save their lives are treated first as always, those with a cough and cold are sent home no matter which Government is in power.

[Barry]

Oh dear, Major's imagination has gone into overdrive, with hordes of Hell's Angels revving their Harley Davidsons outside Sinic manor until the noise cause the electric gate to fall down. They then ride into Sinic Manor to ride around the pristin lawns churning them into a quagmire whilst firing shotguns through the windows breaking the candelabra and chandeliers.



Meanwhile, back in almost reality,

Javert, people all die in the end and the NHS has limited resources. It cannot save us all.

If 200 people turn up at an A&E all expecting treatment at a bed at the same time, why do you think that should be possible to cater for?

Your idea there should be a bed for everyone who needs one is naive and simplistic. The NHS works on a forecast of risk system. If an A&E becomes overrun, or has to close for some reason, people have to be shipped to another centre, which may not then be able to cope.

Oh to live in this Utopia where there is always a bed available in a quiet ward with 3 nurses waiting doing nothing until the new patient arrives.



I wonder how this country would cope in a war situation, where the population currently expects everything it wants (not even needs) on a plate, and now!

[papasmurf]

Just being a sensitive and caring Tory

No such thing exists, or they would be protesting in droves about the very nasty effect of Tory policies since May 2010.

They can no longer plead ignorance.

[Borchester]

That's all very well for you to say!



You haven't been threatened with a plague of psychopathic Hells Angels descending on your broad acres with hate in their hearts, by a septuagenarian and obsessive autistic Tory hater.



Just being a sensitive and caring Tory could result in a serious attack at any time! Cyber bullying is a serious social problem and a serious offence!

 

[Borchester]

Frankly smurf it would surprise me if you had any friends at all! :kikass:

Sod it Major, I wanted to say that    

[Javert]

Any organisation, particularly one as large as the NHS, suffers peaks and troughs. To provide the resources to cater for the peaks as though they were the norm would cost an unjustifiable proportion of our already excessive tax take.

Well this is where the attitude seems to have changed in recent years, because if go back a decade or two, I don't think this was a general attitude - hospitals were expected to have enough beds that they could provide a bed to everyone who needed it.  



This is now changing to, "if you get sick at peak time in December or January, you might just have to die".



Interestingly even after I posted yesterday, I happened to come across the below article.  This article says that a study by NHS doctors which attempted to see how many deaths were directly attributable to people being made to wait too long for hospital admission, reported 5449 deaths since 2016.  I'm sure some people will challenge the methodology of it, but it looks to me like they have made a serious attempt to calculate this.



https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/10/thousands-of-patients-die-waiting-for-beds-in-hospitals-study">https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... tals-study">https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/10/thousands-of-patients-die-waiting-for-beds-in-hospitals-study



Now if you are right and most people think it's ok for thousands of people to die because the NHS is not funded enough at peak times to provide timely care, there should be an open national debate about it, because I suspect that many people would disagree here.

[papasmurf]

That's all very well for you to say!



You haven't been threatened with a plague of psychopathic Hells Angels

Your assumption is Hells Angels, they aren't.

[Major Sinic]

Seems like banter all round.

Intimidation? Hardly.  ::

That's all very well for you to say!



You haven't been threatened with a plague of psychopathic Hells Angels descending on your broad acres with hate in their hearts, by a septuagenarian and obsessive autistic Tory hater.



Just being a sensitive and caring Tory could result in a serious attack at any time! Cyber bullying is a serious social problem and a serious offence!

[Barry]

This in response to an item of superficial banter on my part!



From my point of view I see this as blatant intimidation and a barely veiled threat of outright violence.



Is there really any room for a poster such as this on this forum? You are a disgrace smurf!

Seems like banter all round.

Intimidation? Hardly.  ::

[Major Sinic]

But the statistics seem to indicate that hospital waiting times are increasing, and that hospitals are operating at maximum capacity much more than before - the data is all publicly available.  



I can also say anecdotally that in our local hospital, if you need to be admitted, you often have to wait a long time for a bed and there are times when people are stuck in ambulances waiting to even get into A&E.  Would you suggest that this was the case 10 or 20 years ago?



Even the extra investment that Labour wanted to do wouldn't be enough, but at least it's better than nothing.

You may be correct that waiting times are increasing although I am not sure that this due to a lack of beds. Interestingly the last Labour administration, ever boastful about its NHS support credentials, closed 25000 beds during their time in government.



Any organisation, particularly one as large as the NHS, suffers peaks and troughs. To provide the resources to cater for the peaks as though they were the norm would cost an unjustifiable proportion of our already excessive tax take. The problem with Labour's economic plans is that they will result in a shrinking economy, lower prosperity, increasing unemployment and therefore reducing tax receipts, preventing them further from being able to fulfill their spending promises which were already going to prove impossible to honour.



My own anecdotal experience of the NHS and its treatment of a serious heart condition since 2008 has been exemplary. Competent, timely, caring, conscientious and effective.