Biden shuns EU with Asia-Pacific power play

[patman post]

Looks like China is suffering from the pitfalls of capitalism too — some news media comments:

Chinese property giant Evergrande is on the brink of collapse.   
After expanding rapidly for years and snapping up assets as China's economy boomed, Evergrande is now snowed under a crushing debt of $300 billion. 
The Chinese developer is so huge that the fallout from a potential failure could hurt not only the Chinese economy, but spread to markets beyond.   
If Evergrande can't repay its debt, it may lead to a situation of "cross default" — this is where a default triggered in one situation may spread to other obligations, leading to broader contagion. 

https://time.com/6099000/china-evergrande/ 
https://apnews.com/article/business-china-beijing-financial-markets-9b77908b0333b601bffa016a6f7c2892 
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/17/china-developer-evergrande-debt-crisis-bond-default-and-investor-risks.html 

Of course these may just be US wishful thinking — something not uncommon in the UK — but $300 billion is some debt when the effect of any failure spreads across the Chinese, Pacific and World economies. 
Could China's economy implode? Should the world be worried? If the worst happened, would other nations step in...?

[GerryT]

China's economy is far more robust than that of the former USSR. Trying to trigger an arms race to outspend it to destruction would likely bankrupt the USA too. And besides which the US people would call time on it before it did that extent of mutual damage. The plain fact is that China can now probably outspend the USA because it doesn't need to give two shites what it's own people think. In economic terms, China is a far bigger threat than the USSR ever was, which in turn gives it the power to spend so much more. In essence, China has taken from capitalism what works with a command economy on top controlling all essential enterprises whilst allowing them to function like capitalist businesses buying up essential assets abroad. It is economic imperialism writ large. China hopes to own an ever increasing chunk of the economies of it's potential enemies, whilst developing it's own military and technology. Soviet power was built on a ramshackle economy which could not sustain it. In the long run China poses a far greater threat.

Great post

[srb7677]

And in the third place it is always fun to crap on the French.

I imagine that the Chinese will have to up their game to counter this new generation of Australian submarines.I wonder if the Yanks are not trying for a repeat of the Reagan maneuver when the Americans got Russia to increase military spending to such an extent that the Russians ended up going arse over tea kettle, down the hill and into the poor house.

We shall see.

Or maybe not 

China's economy is far more robust than that of the former USSR. Trying to trigger an arms race to outspend it to destruction would likely bankrupt the USA too. And besides which the US people would call time on it before it did that extent of mutual damage. The plain fact is that China can now probably outspend the USA because it doesn't need to give two shites what it's own people think. In economic terms, China is a far bigger threat than the USSR ever was, which in turn gives it the power to spend so much more. In essence, China has taken from capitalism what works with a command economy on top controlling all essential enterprises whilst allowing them to function like capitalist businesses buying up essential assets abroad. It is economic imperialism writ large. China hopes to own an ever increasing chunk of the economies of it's potential enemies, whilst developing it's own military and technology. Soviet power was built on a ramshackle economy which could not sustain it. In the long run China poses a far greater threat.

[Borchester]

In the first instance the US does like to have a couple of poodles along on its adventures, so it can claim to be part of an "International Coalition", just like it likes to gather a dozen or so countries together so it can talk about "Global Opinion".

In the second instance, France (unlike the UK), still has Pacific territories. If Europe, now it is free of the UK, does start to fully federalise, the resulting United States of Europe will be a very viable strategic competitor to the United States of America. Under those circumstances, any French Pacific possessions, may very well become EU possessions and insert a new Strategic Competitor into the Asia Pacific region, which the US likes to regard as its exclusive back yard.

Hence the reason why the US was only to happy to dump all over a supposed major European ally.

And in the third place it is always fun to crap on the French.

I imagine that the Chinese will have to up their game to counter this new generation of Australian submarines.I wonder if the Yanks are not trying for a repeat of the Reagan maneuver when the Americans got Russia to increase military spending to such an extent that the Russians ended up going arse over tea kettle, down the hill and into the poor house.

We shall see.

Or maybe not 

[GerryT]

I had a feeling you might speak today, not like the EU has become part of the power play or anything, how are they getting on? Gerry was telling me as long as they are on the side of the Chinese and Russians all is good.

I said the EU has a strategic plan concerning China, which is closer integration through trade and diplomacy. This worked for Europe and we have had a very long period of peace. On the other hand the USA and their minion are going with the age old tactic of armed ships/subs, spying, intelligence gathering. I'm sure the Chinese will now become the best buddies of USA and the UK. The USA can well stand up to China, can little UK do the same ?

[GerryT]

Look in the mirror, Gerry.
You are constantly slagging off another country's citizens.

There might be some truth to that. Not many countries and while you say slag it off, it's mostly point out what I see as the truth of the matter. I exaggerate the point about ww2 only because it get's on my wick the comments on here about the French being roll overs, It's very disrespectful to those soldiers. You could say I'm doing the same, but my point is to show, some posters on here what it feels like. There is a real sense of superiority from some, which you might not pick up on, but it does deserve to be pointed out.

[GerryT]

Gerry stop talking bollocks.

The irish dont speak irish not because of the english people , but the fact none of the irish elite have seriously considered the language as the common tongue of ireland since the flight of the earls and the end of the old gaelic dynasty.

Same in scotland with scottish  , and the end of gaelic as the language of the elite and administration from the 15 th century onwards.

Now without going back over centuries of history , the simple fact is that since independence , the irish have had ample opportunity to re introduce irish as the common tongue , as israel have done with hebrew thorugh the excellent work of the ulpan project etc.
...but the irish , like the scottish  , dont take their native language serious enough , and merely wish to tinker with it as some ancient relic no longer of use in the modern world.

Irish , like scottish to a lesser degree , is taught in school like a foreign language , and then discarded by the majority once out of school.
The irish elite since the days of de valera have used english as the common tongue as a sort of economic safety valve.

I think you mean if it wasnt for the irish you would be speaking irish......

While there are elements of truth in what you say, it's a very English twist on reality. It would be sort of correct to say the Irish elite at the demise of the language moved to using English and that in modern times most Irish people see the language as "not important" and don't keep it up post school. However the demise of the language is before DeValera's time and he was a fluent Irish speaker himself.
The reality is under English rule, the introduction of English only speaking schools where Irish was banned was one point, the second being the land and business grab where all Irish landlords were thrown off their land and this was given to English men, speaking English. But by far the biggest contributor was the Famine and emigration, both caused by the English treatment of the Irish. It wasn't until 1922 that the language received full language rights, something Sinn Fein fight for in NI, it doesn't have that standing today up there.

So the crux of the situation is the English banned the language in schools, the English took the land & businesses introducing English people at elite level, the English caused the Famine (genocide really) and the English caused the mass Emigration.

That's not the same as people loosing interest in the language, so when I say I would be speaking Irish if it weren't for the English, that is exactly what I mean.

[Sheepy]

In the first instance the US does like to have a couple of poodles along on its adventures, so it can claim to be part of an "International Coalition", just like it likes to gather a dozen or so countries together so it can talk about "Global Opinion".

In the second instance, France (unlike the UK), still has Pacific territories. If Europe, now it is free of the UK, does start to fully federalise, the resulting United States of Europe will be a very viable strategic competitor to the United States of Europe. Under those circumstances, any French Pacific possessions, may very well become EU possessions and insert a new Strategic Competitor into the Asia Pacific region, which the US likes to regard as its exclusive back yard.

Hence the reason why the US was only to happy to dump all over a supposed major European ally.

I had a feeling you might speak today, not like the EU has become part of the power play or anything, how are they getting on? Gerry was telling me as long as they are on the side of the Chinese and Russians all is good.

[Sampanviking]

In the first instance the US does like to have a couple of poodles along on its adventures, so it can claim to be part of an "International Coalition", just like it likes to gather a dozen or so countries together so it can talk about "Global Opinion".

In the second instance, France (unlike the UK), still has Pacific territories. If Europe, now it is free of the UK, does start to fully federalise, the resulting United States of Europe will be a very viable strategic competitor to the United States of America. Under those circumstances, any French Pacific possessions, may very well become EU possessions and insert a new Strategic Competitor into the Asia Pacific region, which the US likes to regard as its exclusive back yard.

Hence the reason why the US was only to happy to dump all over a supposed major European ally.

[GerryT]

The best bit here is this passage in Gerry's link.

'Yet it is far from clear that other EU member states are unanimous in support for Paris. Germany's defence ministry announced the signing of a new letter of intent on a military space partnership with Australia in Berlin on Monday, and Eastern European member states have long-held reservations about France's championing of European self-reliance, seeing it as a potential challenge to the alliance with the US.'

Days after France has its pants pulled down, Germany signs a LOI with OZ and this perfectly puts into focus what I've been telling Gerry. Who are the rest of the EU going to side with? Germany, who puts the food in the trough every day or the French who are a constant pain in the arse for them? No brainier, they're going to side with Germany.

Frances sub contract is nothing to do with the EU
Germany LOI with AUS has nothing to do with the EU
AUS showing that it may be an unreliable partner is an issue for the EU and as such the EU commission, where Merkel isn't a member has put on hold the EU-AUS trade deal.

So answer this Nick, if Germany has just issued a LOI to AUS, and if GER runs the EU, why then would Germany, running the EU, threaten to cancel the trade deal. Is that not a complete contracdiction with the LOI ?

[Nick]

Gerry stop talking bollocks.

The irish dont speak irish not because of the english people , but the fact none of the irish elite have seriously considered the language as the common tongue of ireland since the flight of the earls and the end of the old gaelic dynasty.

Same in scotland with scottish  , and the end of gaelic as the language of the elite and administration from the 15 th century onwards.

Now without going back over centuries of history , the simple fact is that since independence , the irish have had ample opportunity to re introduce irish as the common tongue , as israel have done with hebrew thorugh the excellent work of the ulpan project etc.

...but the irish , like the scottish  , dont take their native language serious enough , and merely wish to tinker with it as some ancient relic no longer of use in the modern world.

Irish , like scottish to a lesser degree , is taught in school like a foreign language , and then discarded by the majority once out of school.

The irish elite since the days of de valera have used english as the common tongue as a sort of economic safety valve.

I think you mean if it wasnt for the irish you would be speaking irish......

Like the old photo album Thomas, take it out now and then to reminisce but it's of no interest to the majority.

[Thomas]

It's not anti-english if true.
But for the English I'd be speaking Irish.  Do try keep up.

Gerry stop talking bollocks.

The irish dont speak irish not because of the english people , but the fact none of the irish elite have seriously considered the language as the common tongue of ireland since the flight of the earls and the end of the old gaelic dynasty.

Same in scotland with scottish  , and the end of gaelic as the language of the elite and administration from the 15 th century onwards.

Now without going back over centuries of history , the simple fact is that since independence , the irish have had ample opportunity to re introduce irish as the common tongue , as israel have done with hebrew thorugh the excellent work of the ulpan project etc.

...but the irish , like the scottish  , dont take their native language serious enough , and merely wish to tinker with it as some ancient relic no longer of use in the modern world.

Irish , like scottish to a lesser degree , is taught in school like a foreign language , and then discarded by the majority once out of school.

The irish elite since the days of de valera have used english as the common tongue as a sort of economic safety valve.

I think you mean if it wasnt for the irish you would be speaking irish......

[Barry]

Nothing like your retreat at Dunkirk, while the French stayed to fight, so your lads could scamper after only a couple of days fighting.

You see, you lot can't help yourself slagging off the French. Not nice is it. The superiority complex you have is second to none though.

Look in the mirror, Gerry.
You are constantly slagging off another country's citizens.

[Sheepy]

First a WUM now a comedian,but are you worth the effort?

Probably not.

No not at all, it is like listening to a parody of William Brooke Joyce, he has about as much knowledge of geo politics as my dog.

[Nick]

First a WUM now a comedian,but are you worth the effort?

Probably not.

The best bit here is this passage in Gerry's link.

'Yet it is far from clear that other EU member states are unanimous in support for Paris. Germany's defence ministry announced the signing of a new letter of intent on a military space partnership with Australia in Berlin on Monday, and Eastern European member states have long-held reservations about France's championing of European self-reliance, seeing it as a potential challenge to the alliance with the US.'

Days after France has its pants pulled down, Germany signs a LOI with OZ and this perfectly puts into focus what I've been telling Gerry. Who are the rest of the EU going to side with? Germany, who puts the food in the trough every day or the French who are a constant pain in the arse for them? No brainier, they're going to side with Germany.