Macron is really miffed

[Thomas]

Aukus deal to show to France and EU that Biden is not everything that looks like him

To insult the injury, Biden timed the announcement the day before the EU announced its long-term planned Indo-Pacific policy. The EU said Pentagon officials did not, but said it had not been consulted in advance.

Australia fully warned that due to design delays it would be necessary to look elsewhere by September, and the French Navy group actually gave it until September to revise the project's next two-year plan

https://eminetra.co.nz/aukus-deal-to-show-to-france-and-eu-that-biden-is-not-everything-that-looks-like-him-france/374604/

face it gerry , while it clearly is a blow for the French is makes the EU look weak when the EUs foremost military power is being snubbed.

Yet more bad press for the EU and justification for brexit which is tipping remongers over the edge....

[Thomas]

i guess covid played a part, if local resources were nominated suppliers in a contract then their failure would be an issue foe AUS, not France. The contract will be key, nobody seems to know at this stage. But the gutter press have tied this contract with the new security pact, which I haven't seen comments from the French or EU, maybe they don't care what the USA, UK and AUS get up to.

The uk press hasnt had the best of relationships with the eu , but you have to admit in recent years , the eu has been giving them plenty of red meat.

As for AUKUS , you blame the british press gerry , but the aussie press are linking it too to the snub of France and the wider EU...

AUKUS our most dramatic strategic decision in a generation

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/aukus-our-most-dramatic-strategic-decision-in-a-generation/news-story/628252432431e406382d4a56cbfefb40

[GerryT]

Of course it is nothing to do with us individually what was in the contract. However, the press were reporting that the Australians specifications for "locally sourced" parts was causing the French some problems. I doubt they will get a cent for the cancellation. Breach of contract by the French, old chap, could not fulfil said contract on its terms.

i guess covid played a part, if local resources were nominated suppliers in a contract then their failure would be an issue foe AUS, not France. The contract will be key, nobody seems to know at this stage. But the gutter press have tied this contract with the new security pact, which I haven't seen comments from the French or EU, maybe they don't care what the USA, UK and AUS get up to.

[Thomas]

If it were well thought out then France wouldn't be surprised with the contract cancellation.

Thats what various articles have said , why is France surprised when the arguing and problems have been going on and getting worse for 15 months if not more?

As i said , smacks more of delusion and macron using it to distract the massive issues he has.

Why AUS cancel and then go for a nuclear sub suggests its not just a performance issue by France.

wel aye , France couldnt meet autralias strategic need , so they said non.

For now France is upset and they will prob make the next move.

Maybe someone  should send macron a little pink dress and a pack of tampons.

[GerryT]

They walked away because the French tried to force them to use resources from elsewhere when they already had them in abundance.

This will be a contractual matter then, if its spelt out where the 'resources' come from then the French are in trouble, if not it could be the AUS. A simplistic way of looking at it but there will be 2 sides to this. But employers have a very high burden of proof to sack an employee, which is what we are looking at.

[GerryT]

According to the article the aussie defence secretary states they have been having problems with the French for the last 15 months. So this certainly isnt just some spur of the moment decision , its been carefully thought out and they have decided to cut their losses and run.

I dont think anyone is suggesting it is , but its an issue for the aussies and french to sort. Clearly the aussies have said enough is enough , and this is a welcome distraction for macron to take some of the heat off him at home.

I think its going to take more than this though to save macron from the wrath of the French people.

If it were well thought out then France wouldn't be surprised with the contract cancellation. Why AUS cancel and then go for a nuclear sub suggests its not just a performance issue by France. It could be fake by France pretending to know nothing but in fact may have been fully aware they were in big trouble. We'll find out as this plays out. For now France is upset and they will prob make the next move.

[Thomas]

The dev will be in the detail of the contracts, this could go on for a long time.

or it might not.

You dont know either way , but one thing is for sure , the French are far more upset than the aussies.

[GerryT]

Gerry, my apologies and bloody phone autocorrect.


I meant to say STALLED.


According to several news features all of whom are probably parroting the same press release, the diesel electric boat deal has been delayed by French resistance to Australian insistence on use of local materials.


I don't know much about nuclear powered submarines but I do know a bit about diesel electric ones, having been called upon to complete the design of an autopilot for one after my former employer went bankrupt.


My experience of that time gives me some serious questions of that "disagreement" that to me can only be resolved as a row over where the boats were to be built, and by whom. Because as I said in another post, possibly in another thread, you can't use the Airbus fantasy of flying bits of planes built in locations all over the European Union Toma central factory to assemble them, to build a bloody submarine, it's just too damn heavy, so you either build them in the UK then drive them to the U Boat maker in Germany to be weaponised as we did before flogging it to the Jews, OR you fly your engineers to the Antipodes and do the work there in facilities that already exist, or new on s you build as part of the deal, as my clients did in 90-92 when putting INMARSAT satellite data systems across the planet.


There's no obvious alternative I can see, unless you are thinking meet halfway in someone else's shipyards, like maybe China's.....

no need for apologies, mobiles can be a pain, while that makes sence it highlights the complexity of these projects. The dev will be in the detail of the contracts, this could go on for a long time.

[Thomas]

Is that right, well make a point then, what is it about that post that you find un-truthful. Or are you, as usual, talking through your bum.

Everything about you Gerry is "untruthfull".

You try and play the concerned "irishman" in Dublin , but your sole purpose of posting on here is to rubbish brexit to the exclusion of all else , and defend the EU.

I have never heard of  , nor met an alleged irishman from the republic so concerned with the uk and its current dealing s as you are. You arent just some "ordinary " poster on here to discuss political issues , you are like a bad smell that surfaces every time the EU/Brexit is mentioned .

Your posting style , despite your dismissal , is reminiscent of an old poster from our previous forum , who incidentally also had a "sister" living in my country.

What actually is your motive for being on here ?

You originally said brexit was done , thats it , we left back at the start of the transition period when you thought the uk could still be tied to some eu deal , now the transition is over ,you claim "brexit isnt done" because you didnt get the stitch up you wanted.

You claim you dont want the uk to rejoin , or BRINO or whatever , so i assume you are trying to win over hearts and minds to rubbish brexit and hope your old party labour can get back into power and stitch the uk up by signing us back into the EU by the back door?! I would physically crawl to the polling station to vote to stop the labour party getting back into power such is my contempt and hatred for them , like most of the uk.

Most of us on here can discuss various political issues , that what the forum is for. You however are like a broken down record player saying the same thing , the same tired old arguments , over and over again and again , simply because you cannot accept democracy. Not that its anything to do with you of course , not being a uk citizen.......

....very reminicent of that same old despised former poster who used to post on this forums predesscessor regarding new labour and defending tony blairs legacy long after they were kicked out of power and blairs legacy reduced to ashes.......

[Barry]

So what.
We're talking about a contract between France and Aus. In reality it has nothing to do with USA or UK. The USA-Aus-UK pact is a different thing, and has nothing to do with France or the EU.

Of course it is nothing to do with us individually what was in the contract. However, the press were reporting that the Australians specifications for "locally sourced" parts was causing the French some problems. I doubt they will get a cent for the cancellation. Breach of contract by the French, old chap, could not fulfil said contract on its terms.

[Nick]

Possibly, but the issue is the French have a contract and its 5yrs roughly into that. If Australia are just walking away because they now prefer to have Nuclear then Aus are in for a bog payout.
I'm sure the details will start flowing in the coming days. But it looks a very strange move by Aus.

They walked away because the French tried to force them to use resources from elsewhere when they already had them in abundance.

[Thomas]

You would think they (AUS) would have sorted that out before deciding to place contracts with USA. But the prob haven't and prob won't until they know what the damage might be. I doubt this will be a simple fix.

According to the article the aussie defence secretary states they have been having problems with the French for the last 15 months. So this certainly isnt just some spur of the moment decision , its been carefully thought out and they have decided to cut their losses and run.

I doubt this will be a simple fix.

I dont think anyone is suggesting it is , but its an issue for the aussies and french to sort. Clearly the aussies have said enough is enough , and this is a welcome distraction for macron to take some of the heat off him at home.

I think its going to take more than this though to save macron from the wrath of the French people.

[Thomas]

Aukus is a disaster for the EU
If you treat the UK as a strategic adversary, don't be surprised when the UK does the same

It is hard to overstate the importance of the so-called Aukus alliance between the US, the UK and Australia — and the implicit geopolitical disaster for the EU. The alliance is the culmination of multiple European failures: naivety at the highest level of the EU about US foreign policy; Brussels's political misjudgements of Joe Biden and his China strategy; compulsive obsession with Donald Trump; and the attempt to corner Theresa May during the Brexit talks. If you treat the UK as a strategic adversary, don't be surprised when the UK exploits the areas where it enjoys a competitive advantage.

The EU has outmanoeuvred itself through lazy group-think. While German political parties are still discussing the pros and cons of Nato, the Biden administration is moving beyond Nato towards a multipolar defence strategy. Nato remains a pillar but it is now supplemented by informal Indo-Pacific alliances. One of them is the quad: the US, Japan, India and Australia. Five Eyes is an informal intelligence alliance between the US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand. Aukus is a nuclear submarine pact between the US, the UK and Australia. This is the variable geometry of the new international order — whereas the monolithic EU is stuck with its 27 veto-wielding members in the foreign affairs council.

[/b]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/aukus-is-a-sign-of-eu-impotence

[johnofgwent]

That very much remains to be seen, "stalked" is some way of describing it, and "demands", two words not seldom used in contracts. In a contract you typically have a set scope, delivery schedule, payment terms, dispute resolution mechanism and a means for dealing with variations and a change control mechanism. I don't know the details of this contract but if Australia cancelled the contract they would need to have demonstrated that they exhausted all means within the contract. From the French reaction that doesn't seem to be the case, but again, time will tell. But Australia could be in for some legal action depending on the detail.

Do you know the detail ?

Gerry, my apologies and bloody phone autocorrect.


I meant to say STALLED.


According to several news features all of whom are probably parroting the same press release, the diesel electric boat deal has been delayed by French resistance to Australian insistence on use of local materials.


I don't know much about nuclear powered submarines but I do know a bit about diesel electric ones, having been called upon to complete the design of an autopilot for one after my former employer went bankrupt.


My experience of that time gives me some serious questions of that "disagreement" that to me can only be resolved as a row over where the boats were to be built, and by whom. Because as I said in another post, possibly in another thread, you can't use the Airbus fantasy of flying bits of planes built in locations all over the European Union Toma central factory to assemble them, to build a bloody submarine, it's just too damn heavy, so you either build them in the UK then drive them to the U Boat maker in Germany to be weaponised as we did before flogging it to the Jews, OR you fly your engineers to the Antipodes and do the work there in facilities that already exist, or new on s you build as part of the deal, as my clients did in 90-92 when putting INMARSAT satellite data systems across the planet.


There's no obvious alternative I can see, unless you are thinking meet halfway in someone else's shipyards, like maybe China's.....

[GerryT]

The truth Gerry which it seems you are a stranger with.

Is that right, well make a point then, what is it about that post that you find un-truthful. Or are you, as usual, talking through your bum.