Proportional Representation

[papasmurf]

 But perhaps we are not there yet.

By next February/March that could change.

[B0ycey]

All that shows is the uk is governed by an elite who count on the fact that the worst thing a brit does in protest is open a tasteless arsebook page. What we should do is follow the Ukrainian example.

Indeed.



But regards to Ukraine there is a cultural divide whereas the West seem oblivious that half of Ukraine consider themselves Russian which has caused the civil war and still think those who stormed Keiv are the voice. They aren't. They are just one viewpoint.



Although with your point on change, riots were frequent in Thatchers era and that achieved some change especially in regards to poll tax but perhaps not so much for the miners. So I believe that the UK would stand up when the conditions are right as they have done so before. But perhaps we are not there yet.

[Borg Refinery]

All that shows is the uk is governed by an elite who count on the fact that the worst thing a brit does in protest is open a tasteless arsebook page. What we should do is follow the Ukrainian example.

Um, have a proxy Russian backed on one side, and EU backed on the other civil war?



Now why does that sound familiar... hmm...



But I'm not a fan of Svoboda and people who kill children generally.

[johnofgwent]

Great to see we are more dissatisfied than Ukraine. Especially as they are in civil war!

All that shows is the uk is governed by an elite who count on the fact that the worst thing a brit does in protest is open a tasteless arsebook page. What we should do is follow the Ukrainian example.

[Thomas]

Um, my post wasn't directed at you, but was a general comment.



We were all set to introduce PR in 1917 but it got hampered back then as well.



There is no way of breaking the English two-party deadlock and as you say, Starmer won't even consider and Boris even less so.



There is no way I can see reform happening, period.

So why talk about it?



If you look who started the OP to begin with , and why , you will see the only time pr gets trotted out is when certain folk dont like the SNP or other  parties doing well within its confines.



There is only one way to overcome FPTP as we have shown in scotland , play the game , work the system and smash it from within.



As long as england keeps playing labour tory tennis it will simply be same shit different day. ( vote A to keep B out is the recipe for a long term political disaster)



Westminster does reform , just very slowly. It took you to the 20th century to just about get over the feudal age , so perhaps pr might be in line within the next few centuries.



Who knows?

[Borg Refinery]

My point still stands - the two main parties will fight tooth and nail to avoid introducing any kind of PR for the HOC - why would any party agree to a system that makes it less likely that they will gain a majority in parliament?



The only way to get PR is if a party with it in their manifesto is elected to power, which has a chance of around zero I suspect.

Um, my post wasn't directed at you, but was a general comment.



We were all set to introduce PR in 1917 but it got hampered back then as well.



There is no way of breaking the English two-party deadlock and as you say, Starmer won't even consider and Boris even less so.



There is no way I can see reform happening, period.

[Javert]

Blair introduced electoral reform (forced on him by the EU) and devolved parliaments, but not for the HofC, not in a good way for the HofC anyway.



https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/David-Klemperer-Electoral-Systems-and-Electoral-Reform-in-the-UK-in-Historical-Perspective.pdf">https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... ective.pdf">https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/David-Klemperer-Electoral-Systems-and-Electoral-Reform-in-the-UK-in-Historical-Perspective.pdf



Also quite revealing:



https://ibb.co/zhGxdnQ">

My point still stands - the two main parties will fight tooth and nail to avoid introducing any kind of PR for the HOC - why would any party agree to a system that makes it less likely that they will gain a majority in parliament?



The only way to get PR is if a party with it in their manifesto is elected to power, which has a chance of around zero I suspect.

[johnofgwent]

Blair introduced electoral reform (forced on him by the EU) and devolved parliaments, but not for the HofC, not in a good way for the HofC anyway.



https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/David-Klemperer-Electoral-Systems-and-Electoral-Reform-in-the-UK-in-Historical-Perspective.pdf">https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... ective.pdf">https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/David-Klemperer-Electoral-Systems-and-Electoral-Reform-in-the-UK-in-Historical-Perspective.pdf



Also quite revealing:



https://ibb.co/zhGxdnQ">

A key fact in regard to the "alternative vote" system for which Cameron held a referendum was that the way it worked meant that in SOME circumstances the result could actually be LESS "proportional" than FPTP. This claim was analysed and accepted as correct by the electoral commission and appeared on their website - until various people complained that to have this fact on there was bias...

[B0ycey]

Great to see we are more dissatisfied than Ukraine. Especially as they are in civil war!

[Borg Refinery]

Blair introduced electoral reform (forced on him by the EU) and devolved parliaments, but not for the HofC, not in a good way for the HofC anyway.



https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/David-Klemperer-Electoral-Systems-and-Electoral-Reform-in-the-UK-in-Historical-Perspective.pdf">https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... ective.pdf">https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/David-Klemperer-Electoral-Systems-and-Electoral-Reform-in-the-UK-in-Historical-Perspective.pdf



Also quite revealing:



https://ibb.co/zhGxdnQ">

[Thomas]

True enough, but you can make it less prone to certain errors.



Gerrymandering can be a real problem (look to the US). It's not so bad here but can make a difference.



FPTP is the most sensitive to gerrymandering and pure PR is insensitive.

The ams system in scotland is not without massive fault ,as an example ,  but i agree , even this is far more proportional and way above the disgrace that is the FPTP stitch up the has been the bedrock of labour tory domination across the disunited uk for generations.



oh by the way beelbeeb , i have an apology to make to you and javert over singling you two out and calling you anti democratic.



After reading some of the comments by brexiters like borkie and streetwalker , i never knew the concept of democracy was so widespread and difficult to understand in England.



Seems you arent alone...... :thup:

[BeElBeeBub]

Let's not rush to sweeping and groundless conclusions. Not everyone agrees that FPTP is rubbish. Most people who give it any thought, and that I suggest is a small minority of the electorate, would probably agree that it is inherently undemocratic and that there are more democratic alternatives. However with those alternatives also come weaknesses and compromises.

good point - "rubbish" is too loaded a word.  



I was thinking about FPTP the other day and it occured to me that it was effectively anyone way mathematical function.



If you regard the votes cast as the input data and the voting power in the legislature (normally the seat distribution but not always) as the output then the method chosen (FPTP, AV etc) is effectively a mathematical function or black box that transforms the input into the output.



Inevitably such a function results in the loss of information. It is basically a compression function.



A pure PV system, however, allows the popular vote to be reconstructed fairly accurately.  It does, however, lose geographical information (i.e. it is impossible to reconstruct where votes were cast - a given output could be achieved by all the votes being evenly spread or all the votes being clustered)



FPTP, preserves some geographical information (e.g. you can tell the SNP vote is concentrated in Scotland) but loses a lot of the popular vote share info.



One decision needing to be made is what aspect of the voter input data is more important. Geography or vote share?

Yes I agree political reform is certainly desirable and probably necessary.



However most electoral options have features that can be regarded  as either strengths or weaknesses. For instance FPTP and Party List PR are political centric. To some this provides broad or even tight agreement between MPs, a common a identity and cohesion. This can be considered a strength by some and a weakness by some.



More contentious is the point that only very rarely is the majority party in terms of seats also the majority party in terms of votes. Again this is far more likely to provide strong government (a strength) but at a loss of individual democracy ( a weakness).



Then we have 'halfway house' such as the Alternative Vote, were if the votes fall in a certain way can be either more or less representative than FPTP.



My own view is that we can not look at just the electoral process without considering the other aspects of our unwritten constitution; the reform of the HoLs, the disestablishment of the CofE, the repeal of the damaging fixed term parliament act, the degree that the legislature can intervene in a parliament which is, or was regarded as sovereign, the role of the Speaker and, deep breath, perhaps the most contentious of all, republicanism and the role and limits of a Head of State.



In much the same way as marriage is far more than just procreation, political and parliamentary reform is and should be far more than just the electoral process.

Good point, which is why I'm kicking off a thread on the HoL....

[BeElBeeBub]

Serious danger of agreement here.

<devil taps thermostat, fiddles with radiator> :dncg:

 My view of the system may be somewhat optimistic, but it was indeed intended that engaged voters pick the man after understanding them and their ideas. Political parties destroy that engagement.

[BeElBeeBub]

no matter what system you use , it will never be foolproof.

True enough, but you can make it less prone to certain errors.



Gerrymandering can be a real problem (look to the US). It's not so bad here but can make a difference.



FPTP is the most sensitive to gerrymandering and pure PR is insensitive.

[Ciaphas]

https://theconversation.com/what-would-the-british-parliament-look-like-under-proportional-representation-128808">https://theconversation.com/what-would- ... ion-128808">https://theconversation.com/what-would-the-british-parliament-look-like-under-proportional-representation-128808



Interesting article on the subject of proportional representation with reference to the Dutch and German systems.



Makes the point that care needs to be taken when trying to view the recent General Election results through a PR lense given that the voting system itself will influence voting choices and there are some fundamental differences.



With that caveat in mind the Conservatives would have failed to secure a majority without Liberal Democrat support (However unlikely that is), and that Labour could only secure a majority with the support of all the other left wing parties, perhaps equally unlikely or at least very unstable.