Exit polls predict large tory majority and Scotland going to SNP

[Thomas]

Same to you Thomas  :hattip

No worries mate just finished today.



We had a night out on friday , ruby murray and a few wee drinks for me and my dearest , slight hangover saturday , then working all day practically sunday and today.



Two weeks off now , bliss.



Hope you enjoy the holiday period mate with your family , i intend putting the feet up.



 :thup:

[Streetwalker]

Merry xmas streetwalker , and aw the best fur the new year.

Same to you Thomas  :hattip

[Thomas]

Well its a bit more than the norm but if your happy  and Scotland is happy then that's all that matters . 8-)

exactly mate. Both go our own ways and wave goodbye , so long and thanks for all the debt! ::





Merry xmas streetwalker , and aw the best fur the new year.

[Streetwalker]

So you agree that ceding sovereignty by an independent nation in the current world stage is the normal state of affairs , you just believe joining the eu is ceding too much.



Fair enough , so joining the eu isnt giving up independence , it justs in your opinion ceding a bit more than is the norm.



glad we cleared that up.

Well its a bit more than the norm but if your happy  and Scotland is happy then that's all that matters . 8-)

[Thomas]

Well every debate is about opinions ,if everything was black and white we would have nothing to chew the cud over would we .

Of course there is a bit of give and take (ceding sovereignty ) in all treaties . Its my opinion that being a member of the EU cedes too much .

So you agree that ceding sovereignty by an independent nation in the current world stage is the normal state of affairs , you just believe joining the eu is ceding too much.



Fair enough , so joining the eu isnt giving up independence , it justs in your opinion ceding a bit more than is the norm.



glad we cleared that up.

[Streetwalker]

in your opinion.



The vast majority of countries in the world as we discussed time and again in the run up to the brexit ref are part of organisations where they cede sovereignty.

Well every debate is about opinions ,if everything was black and white we would have nothing to chew the cud over would we .

Of course there is a bit of give and take (ceding sovereignty ) in all treaties . Its my opinion that being a member of the EU cedes too much .

[Thomas]

Correct they don't want independence even though their people might

in your opinion.



The vast majority of countries in the world as we discussed time and again in the run up to the brexit ref are part of organisations where they cede sovereignty.



Your country and the majority in it unless you can show otherwise wish to remain in many organisations where you cede sovereignty .



Give me a shout when a paryt in england standing on a complete break from any and every  international organisation wins power and the support of the majority of english people and i will agree you might have a point , until then , you are being ridiculous and spouting nothing more than the view of a tiny lunatic fringe with little support in your own wee country never mind anywhere else.

[Streetwalker]

Your position is ridiculous , that would mean anyone who wants to stay in the eu , all 27 european members , dont want independence.

Correct they don't want independence even though their people might

[Thomas]

That you don't have a party that wants independence for Scotland is maybe confusing the issue ,that the SNP wants to throw itself at the feet of Brussels makes me anti SNP but that in no way should be confused with being a 'staunch unionist'

Your position is ridiculous , that would mean anyone who wants to stay in the eu , all 27 european members , dont want independence.



That would mean england doesnt want full independence if it remains in nato , or any other organisation that involves ceding sovereignty as we have discussed many a time.



A unionist is someone what wants to maintain a union , in your case the british one , and by your own posts over two forums over ten years , you have told me you want to maintain the union , am i right?



You might bandy words in saying at times scotland should have the right to choose( when it suits and there is little evidence of us going in your opinion) but you have consistently maintained a  british unionist position.



i on the other hand am a european unionist.



I can maintain a credible position of wanting out the unequal uk union , gaining indy , and joining the eu like other independent nations ireland france or denmark , who are no less patriotic than you or i , without compromising my principles.



You want to leave the eu , but stay in all the other organisations as you choose . So what are you talking about?



We arent arguing total sovereignty and freedom , you are simply arguing which organisations it is acceptable to cede sovereignty to.

[Streetwalker]

No you dont.



You offer up vague insinuations of supporting self determination so as to not contradict your position on why england should have self determination.



By your own admission over two forums we have engaged on over the last ten years you are a staunch british unionist , that supports a right wing british /english nationalist party whose very policy over the years going from ukip to brexit parties , was to stop scottish independence and abolish the scottish parliament in the process if ever elected against the will of three quarters of the scottish people.









You do this sort of thing all the time. When you feel independence has little support in scotland , you offer up vague support for scottish indy safe in your apparent knowledge it will never happen , so a few wee white lies and kid on support you think is harmless.



Then , as in 2014 , 2015 and now 2019 , when it looks scotland might either vote indy , or the snp win a landslide , you come out with all sorts of mealy mouthed words of why scotland shouldnt get indy , doesnt support indy , or why it shoudnt happen at the minute.



I would respect your position more streetwalker if you were open and honest about it instead of playing semantics and punting the ridiculous position that 43% gives the tories a mandate to take england out the eu , but 45% doesnt give the snp a mandate to even hold an indy referendum.

No Im not a staunch British unionist at all .  I was a member of UKIP as they were the only party that could force the issue of leaving the EU which they did of course (fingers crossed ) .Im no longer a member . The Brexit party don't have members and didn't have a candidate down here so I haven't been able to support them even if I wanted to .



You have replied to my post not to what I have written but to what you think I think  and have  alas been wide of the mark on my views on the separation of Scotland from the UK my preference always having been one of Independent  nations outside the EU .

That you don't have a party that wants independence for Scotland is maybe confusing the issue ,that the SNP wants to throw itself at the feet of Brussels makes me anti SNP but that in no way should be confused with being a 'staunch unionist'

[Thomas]

ERr no we don't . Cant speak for borkie but Im pretty sure he is of the same mind but for the record and for the last time (I hope)

I SUPPORT SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE .

No you dont.



You offer up vague insinuations of supporting self determination so as to not contradict your position on why england should have self determination.



By your own admission over two forums we have engaged on over the last ten years you are a staunch british unionist , that supports a right wing british /english nationalist party whose very policy over the years going from ukip to brexit parties , was to stop scottish independence and abolish the scottish parliament in the process if ever elected against the will of three quarters of the scottish people.

That I ask questions of where the electorate in Scotland stand on the matter and what's this with comments made by the SNP leader about needing more votes to get it over line doesn't mean I don't support Independence .

You do this sort of thing all the time. When you feel independence has little support in scotland , you offer up vague support for scottish indy safe in your apparent knowledge it will never happen , so a few wee white lies and kid on support you think is harmless.



Then , as in 2014 , 2015 and now 2019 , when it looks scotland might either vote indy , or the snp win a landslide , you come out with all sorts of mealy mouthed words of why scotland shouldnt get indy , doesnt support indy , or why it shoudnt happen at the minute.



I would respect your position more streetwalker if you were open and honest about it instead of playing semantics and punting the ridiculous position that 43% gives the tories a mandate to take england out the eu , but 45% doesnt give the snp a mandate to even hold an indy referendum.

[Thomas]

It wasn't intended to be. I was just trying to imagine just how some Scots might be feeling now. I was just watching Sturgeon's speech on getting the ref decision devolved to Scotland. She is following her manifesto pledge, fair enough. She wouldn't answer a question as to what she would do if London refused her.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

No worries toots.



We are back where we were in 2011 , with pretty much outwith brexit , all the same old arguments of the jocks not being allowed to leave.



Obviously she wont answer the question of what she will do if london refuses as forwarned is obviously forearmed.



I thought alec salmond and his guerilla tactics against westminster was great. I admire the man tremendously( up to now).



The one criticism i had of the guy though was that everyone knew what he was going to do before he did it , he couldnt keep quiet.



Sturgeon is a completely different kettle of fish and keeps her cards close to her chest.



So dont mistake failure to answer what she will do as failure of a way forward if westminster says no.

[Streetwalker]

1. The borchesters and streetwalkers who have been telling me for a few years now we support scottish indy jock , but when push comes to shove they vocally support johnsons anti democratic position over scotland not being allowed to choose indy.

ERr no we don't . Cant speak for borkie but Im pretty sure he is of the same mind but for the record and for the last time (I hope)



I SUPPORT SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE .



That I ask questions of where the electorate in Scotland stand on the matter and what's this with comments made by the SNP leader about needing more votes to get it over line doesn't mean I don't support Independence .



In fact Im more for independence than you because what I want for Scotland is the same as I want for England . That being an independent Nation running its own affairs where as you still want to be tied to the EU .  Go figure .

[T00ts]

sorry toots but thats just more deflection .



David cameron pushed through a brexit ref in 2015 on 36.9 % of the vote within 13 months it was done and dusted.



Why cant we do the same on 45% of the vote?



Your  country voted brexit , you were told back in 2014 if not before the risk to the union of brexiters arguments by constitutional lawyers like aileen mcharg , and you charged ahead anyway without 4 nation consent , while your argument has been roundly rejected in scotland at every single election since 2015.?



We shouldnt have to wait on anything , go from the eu with our best wishes , but stop interfering in scottish democracy in the process and be on your way.

It wasn't intended to be. I was just trying to imagine just how some Scots might be feeling now. I was just watching Sturgeon's speech on getting the ref decision devolved to Scotland. She is following her manifesto pledge, fair enough. She wouldn't answer a question as to what she would do if London refused her.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Thomas]

I also see no reason that Scotland should stay, if as you say Barry, enough vote to leave. I do suspect though that Nicola Sturgeon was hopeful of using the euphoria of both the SNP and Conservative results to sweep a Ref through in a hurry. I do wonder and have said before, that some Scots might well be prepared to play a waiting game to see just what the deal is in the end and how that impacts on them before making their decision. There is bound to be some delay between our leaving the EU, a ref being agreed and then their application to rejoin the EU being carried through. They say a week is a long time in politics... They could be right.

sorry toots but thats just more deflection .



David cameron pushed through a brexit ref in 2015 on 36.9 % of the vote within 13 months it was done and dusted.



Why cant we do the same on 45% of the vote?



Your  country voted brexit , you were told back in 2014 if not before the risk to the union of brexiters arguments by constitutional lawyers like aileen mcharg , and you charged ahead anyway without 4 nation consent , while your argument has been roundly rejected in scotland at every single election since 2015.?



We shouldnt have to wait on anything , go from the eu with our best wishes , but stop interfering in scottish democracy in the process and be on your way.