Exit polls predict large tory majority and Scotland going to SNP

[Thomas]

 it doesn't follow that all those who voted SNP would vote to leave the UK.  

You now say you agree with her and me that ( though a good indication of the direction of travel ) a majority SNP vote does not mean a majority leave one so ''unionism has been rejected in every nation '' may be a bit of a premature contention  .

so the same must apply in england then , taking that logic a step on it must follow not all those who voted conservative must want to leave the eu.



Its a sad state of your desperation streetwalker when you are clinging to some interpretation of alleged words from the scottish first minister and leader of the snp for comfort about the future of the union.



You tell me not all those  45% who voted snp want independence( lets ignore not all those who voted lab/lib/ tory / green want the union) with the insinuation the union isnt being rejected , and its not a mandate for independence.



At the same time , you tell me the tory vote , which gave them a landslide at 43% is a mandate for brexit and rejection of the eu so we must leave.



 :: :roll:  ::

[Thomas]

Thank you always for your considered reply Thomas .



The point I was attempting to make was that in post 2 you stated that ''unionism had been rejected in every nation''.

in terms of the general election , whatever nicola sturgeon says , i fully stand by my sentence you quoted.



Unionism has been rejected.



The scottish national party won 82% of scottish seats , the irish national parties sinn fein/SDLP took the majority of northern irish seats , England voted for a party promising to enact what is in effect an english national project , brexit , and to hell with the union many of your countrymen have been saying in recent years , so im not sure where you are showing my sentence is wrong.

Polite or not Sturgeon did remind us that it was not the case ,

No she didnt. Polite or not , nicola sturgeon is a politician  playing politics.



Going by seats and parties elected , im sure you would agree my comment is correct , unionism has been rejected in scotland and northern ireland , with england voting for english patriotism(nothing wrong with that to qualify) by voting tory to get brexit.

You now say you agree with her and me that ( though a good indication of the direction of travel ) a majority SNP vote does not mean a majority leave one so ''unionism has been rejected in every nation '' may be a bit of a premature contention .

Dont twist what i am saying sreetwalker.



If you are honest about it , you are the one on two forums over the last four years who has been hinting if not coming forthright out and saying no matter what scotland wants or votes , it has to leave the eu with the rest of the uk .



Now all of a sudden you are apparently interested in democracy  , all of a sudden you are apparently trying to stack up numbers and percentages , while misinterpreting statements and a bit of innuendo in to the equation to say scotland doesnt want independence , when the extremely laughable thing is you dont want it tested by referendum in case it is true.?



Unionism being rejected in every nation by the general election vote isnt premature , it can and is the correct statement to make  , but it also doesnt mean the union is ending this minute , so please dont twist my words.



Thats will have to be done by a referendum and a border poll , of course we wont know till your government stops bottling it will we?

[Streetwalker]

Of course we still have to convince people  , that goes without saying and im sure it was just nicola sturgeon and her usual  modest manner being polite.



So what? What point are you making?

Thank you always for your considered reply Thomas .



The point I was attempting to make was that in post 2 you stated that ''unionism had been rejected in every nation''.



Polite or not Sturgeon did remind us that it was not the case , it doesn't follow that all those who voted SNP would vote to leave the UK.  

You now say you agree with her and me that ( though a good indication of the direction of travel ) a majority SNP vote does not mean a majority leave one so ''unionism has been rejected in every nation '' may be a bit of a premature contention  .

[Thomas]

Just a reminder that the conservative party stood on a mandate to stop any more scottish indy refs in scotland and got humped  and lost 54% of their scottish seats in the process.

The Tories told voters that this election was "one last chance" to stop an independence referendum.

 That chance has now gone.

Just thought I'd take a screenshot of this tweet, in case it mysteriously disappears at some point.  Here we have the Tories telling voters last Wednesday that the election was "one last chance" to stop a second independence referendum.  Not a "once in a generation chance" or even a "once in a lifetime chance", but the "last" chance.  If that chance wasn't taken, the matter was settled forever.  And we know that when politicians say things like that, they're always talking absolutely literally and can be held to their word.

[/b]



https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3LcYpbLpMww/XffST6ZmVrI/AAAAAAAACVs/pX4ig7h2QtcXlmMnvU3DZdbDPXeJYibwQCEwYBhgL/s400/lam1.png">



SNP: 48 seats (+13)

Conservatives: 6 seats (-7)

Liberal Democrats: 4 seats (n/c)

Labour: 1 seat (-6)

[Thomas]

. Speaking of which what happens when the Tories shaft us and do a brino deal with the EU ? What chance Scottish independence then when it becomes clear we aren't really leaving ?

is your bottle going now about leaving the eu streetwalker? :roll:  ::



FFS i remember you and that other old boy who was always going on about ukip ( forget his name) on the old forum when i first joined ten years ago , now a decade on brexit is here and you are making up stories and excuses why you wont be properly leaving so scotland doesnt stop holding your hand?



if that happens i will laugh like feck. Its no  me johnson will be shafting its you and the english .



 :hattip we can all sit happily ever after under brussells rule as good little europeans afterwards cant we , neither of us getting indy. ::

[Thomas]

 My only other question on that matter would be why you are so keen to ditch Westminster in favour of Brussels as your political masters  

How many time have you asked me this same question on the old forum over the years streewalker and how many time have i given you an in depth reply?



its at the stage now mate im not even gonnae waste time going back over as you clearly arent listening.



https://indyposterboy.scot/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/uk_vs_eu-600x432.jpg">



https://indyposterboy.scot/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/scotland_in_eu2-600x432.jpg">

[Thomas]

Im not clutching at anything Thomas , I don't really give a monkey's  just asking your thoughts particularly on the point Sturgeon was making with regard she thinks she still thinks she may have to convince a few to get indy over the line . (that would be the Im the only one along with the leader of the SNP who is making that argument  :shrg: )

You obviously think its done and dusted , fair enough and good luck .

Are you sure though  your not mistaking my posts for others ? I have and am in favour of Scottish independence (as you should know )

 My only other question on that matter would be why you are so keen to ditch Westminster in favour of Brussels as your political masters  . Speaking of which what happens when the Tories shaft us and do a brino deal with the EU ? What chance Scottish independence then when it becomes clear we aren't really leaving ?

Of course we still have to convince people  , that goes without saying and im sure it was just nicola sturgeon and her usual  modest manner being polite.



So what? What point are you making?



You know as well as i its all up for grabs , but the point i am saying to you is back in 2011 when the snp first won its majority , scottish indy was polling around 25%. By the indyref  three years later , we finished around 45 % as you know. We increased support 20 points in that time.



This time the polls are around 50/50 thereabouts within margin of error. Thats asking people if they would vote scottish indy tomorrow , without mentioning brexit.



Add brexit into the mix , european citizens who voted no to stay in the eu last time now voting yes , 16/17 year olds , biggest tory majority in england in years , we have a good chance.



The snp have only just gone and won the biggest majority in the last half century in scotland , that has only been beaten or equalled twice in that timeframe , once by labour and obviously the snp result in 2015. I think that is a mandate (yet again ) for another indy ref.



65% of scotland voted parties who want another indyref , 55 % voted parties who have a hard line policy of not accepting brexit , and 46 % voted for parties standing on a clear message of scottish independence.



I think it doable , and obviously so do the tories in london which is why they are trying to say no.



As i said to you in the aftermath of 2014 , if its no , then what? The snp wont disappear , could we reach the stage where scotland becomes ungovernable?



Its gone too far now and just like in ireland , theres no truning back.



You unionists problem is the vast majority of scotland do not want brexit , and the vast majority want to see another referendum , my problem is convincing them to leave the uk , and the tories are doing a great job yet again for us.



Thatcher and major had independence support through the roof , which was why eventually when blair came in he had to concede devolution to stop scotland leaving.

[Streetwalker]

hang on here mate you are clutching at straws . It would be helpfull also if you could quote me when replying so i see your post.



You couldnt convince everyone in the uk brexit was the way to go in 2016 , but by any reasonable margin we accept brexiters won the argument even though it was only 52% of the vote. You nevertheless took that as a mandate to leave.



You couldnt convince all four uk nations , only two , that brexit was the way to go. Nevertheless you took that as a mandate to leave the eu.



The conservatives stood in scotland with a clear unequvocal message of voting for them to stop any more divisive referendums , and the wider uk message of enacting brexit.,They lost a fair percentage of their 2017 scottish vote in the process and had 7 of their thirteen seats taken from them by the snp.



Why do we need to convince every soul in scotland independence is the way to go , but you only need a 50+1 majority for brexit?



You re draw the red lines of democracy as you see fit everytime we win streetwalker , you are simply doing what you moaned about javert and beelebeeb etc doing complaing about democracy when it goes against you.



Scotland rejected englands brexit yet again by a feckin landslide.It was a free and fair election in scotland , everyone knew the issues at stake , the union brexit and people were free to abandon the snp and vote tory or brexit party to enact brexit and you lost spectacularly big time.





No one is making this argument bar you. However streetwalker no matter if scotland voted snp in every one of our consitutencies and the snp got 90% of the vote , you would still be making excuses why scotland cant leave the uk or have another referendum.



Its nothing to do with you and none of your concern mate.



Have the good grace to respect our democracy as i respected your when you voted leave.









you dont have a vote or a say on scottish indy mate, so its a complete irrelevance to me and 5 and half million scottish wether you agree or not.



wether we stay in the eu or not is between us and them as well not you as i have told you for years now.



As i told your remainer opponents javert and beelbeeb deomcracy isnt something you can pick and choose what to accept when it suits your argument.



The idea some political party based in england that has just lost massively in scotland can tell us what to do has to be one of the most laughable arguments i have ever heard .



The argument from this precious union of yours is now reduced down to people like yourself and the tories telling us they are going to send gunboats up the clyde and take scotland hostage and keep us in your union.



i like what this guy here from the new statesman says....

Im not clutching at anything Thomas , I don't really give a monkey's  just asking your thoughts particularly on the point Sturgeon was making with regard she thinks she still thinks she may have to convince a few to get indy over the line . (that would be the Im the only one along with the leader of the SNP who is making that argument  :shrg: )

You obviously think its done and dusted , fair enough and good luck .

Are you sure though  your not mistaking my posts for others ? I have and am in favour of Scottish independence (as you should know )

 My only other question on that matter would be why you are so keen to ditch Westminster in favour of Brussels as your political masters  . Speaking of which what happens when the Tories shaft us and do a brino deal with the EU ? What chance Scottish independence then when it becomes clear we aren't really leaving ?

[Sheepy]

Poor old thomas,spending all of his waking hours telling us Unionists are rare as rocking horse poo in Scotland,we might have noticed for ourselves.

[Thomas]

https://indyposterboy.scot/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/forsyth_indy-600x432.jpg">



funny auld world in the yookay.



It used to be a mandate for independence if the snp won a majority of seats according to heid tories like thatcher and forsyth in the eighties and nineties , so when we did win a majority , that red line was withdrawn and another higher bar set instead. :roll:

[Thomas]

lets not forget the lies conservative politicians were telling us in scotland in the run up to the scottish indy ref regarding brexit and voting no to independence to stay in the eu via the uk which wont be leaving the eu.



Another inconvenient fact for you streetwalker along with and inconvenient general election result in scotland???



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELxaqjaXkAY43gd.jpg">



dont think we in scotland forget all this for one minute.

[Thomas]

The reason I  asked Thomas was it was the view of Sturgeon herself  in her speech at mid day that though the SNP had got the backing of the Scottish people to look after their interests some (she didn't give a %) still needed convincing that full independence from the UK was the way to go .

hang on here mate you are clutching at straws . It would be helpfull also if you could quote me when replying so i see your post.



You couldnt convince everyone in the uk brexit was the way to go in 2016 , but by any reasonable margin we accept brexiters won the argument even though it was only 52% of the vote. You nevertheless took that as a mandate to leave.



You couldnt convince all four uk nations , only two , that brexit was the way to go. Nevertheless you took that as a mandate to leave the eu.



The conservatives stood in scotland with a clear unequvocal message of voting for them to stop any more divisive referendums , and the wider uk message of enacting brexit.,They lost a fair percentage of their 2017 scottish vote in the process and had 7 of their thirteen seats taken from them by the snp.



Why do we need to convince every soul in scotland independence is the way to go , but you only need a 50+1 majority for brexit?



You re draw the red lines of democracy as you see fit everytime we win streetwalker , you are simply doing what you moaned about javert and beelebeeb etc doing complaing about democracy when it goes against you.



Scotland rejected englands brexit yet again by a feckin landslide.It was a free and fair election in scotland , everyone knew the issues at stake , the union brexit and people were free to abandon the snp and vote tory or brexit party to enact brexit and you lost spectacularly big time.

 Its like saying everyone that voted Tory is a brexiteer which would be stretching it a bit don't you think ?

No one is making this argument bar you. However streetwalker no matter if scotland voted snp in every one of our consitutencies and the snp got 90% of the vote , you would still be making excuses why scotland cant leave the uk or have another referendum.



Its nothing to do with you and none of your concern mate.



Have the good grace to respect our democracy as i respected your when you voted leave.

As I have previously stated I would support independence for Scotland if that's what the Scots wanted ,I really don't have a problem with Nations being self governing and independent from multi national blocs .

you dont have a vote or a say on scottish indy mate, so its a complete irrelevance to me and 5 and half million scottish wether you agree or not.



wether we stay in the eu or not is between us and them as well not you as i have told you for years now.



As i told your remainer opponents javert and beelbeeb deomcracy isnt something you can pick and choose what to accept when it suits your argument.



The idea some political party based in england that has just lost massively in scotland can tell us what to do has to be one of the most laughable arguments i have ever heard .



The argument from this precious union of yours is now reduced down to people like yourself and the tories telling us they are going to send gunboats up the clyde and take scotland hostage and keep us in your union.



i like what this guy here from the new statesman says....





https://twitter.com/i/status/1205813230536404995">//https://twitter.com/i/status/1205813230536404995

Stephen Bush, "I think it's basically unsustainable at this point for anyone to be able to argue that the referendum mandate in 2014 for Scottish independence could possibly be said to still be alive"

[/b]

[Streetwalker]

The reason I  asked Thomas was it was the view of Sturgeon herself  in her speech at mid day that though the SNP had got the backing of the Scottish people to look after their interests some (she didn't give a %) still needed convincing that full independence from the UK was the way to go . Its like saying everyone that voted Tory is a brexiteer  which would be stretching it a bit don't you think ?



As I have previously stated I would support independence for Scotland if that's what the Scots wanted ,I really don't have a problem with Nations being self governing and independent from multi national blocs .



 I was just asking some questions not stating any delusional  or fantasist  position .  :shrg:

[Thomas]

Has unionism really been rejected Thomas ?  Im sure I don't think of England when voting for nationalist parties, UKIP are unionists as are the Tory's so the English it seems haven't given up on that yet . The English get pretty wound up at sporting events but politically they are very much British

brexit is an english project ( and welsh) that wasnt bought into by scotland and northern ireland.



You continue to conflate englishness and britishness all you want streetwalker , but the fact of the matter is unionists won 11% of seats in scotland , and nationalists took the majority in northern ireland.



If that isnt unionism being rejected i dont know what is.You appear to be in the fantasy world beelbeeb inhabits streetwalker.

The Scottish vote is maybe different but does wanting home rule ,your own government really mean all those who voted SNP want partition from the union

you need to stop listening to the tired old homilies being trotted out by the conservative party streetwalker.



I have been telling you for four years now you wont be taking scotland out the eu without a fight , you choose to ignore that and now stoop to telling us despite the snp taking nearly 90 % of scottish seats , somehow people who vote for the snp will accept brexit and being taken out of the eu against our will.



You are delusional mate.



The only way we will know how the people of scotland think is by testing it in a referendum , and your governments are shitting themselves and refuse to accept scotland having one.



What are you afraid of?



If all those folk who voted snp arent interested in scotland becoming independent and remaining in the eu , what are you afraid of?



Just as brexiters in england have won five referendums and elections in five years , you have been humped repeatedly in scotland over the same time.



FFS your party , ukip now brexit party repeatedly lost deposits , and now somehow you seriously believe  scotland will stomach brexit ti stay in the union? bring it on i say.



Time the snp got the gloves off.

 Would you still want the Queen as your head of state or would you really want Princess Sophie on the Scottish throne ?

im a scottish republican as you know over the years , but im more than happy to accept the monarchy if it means ending the union.

[Streetwalker]

could we have just witnessed the last uk general election cromwell?



English nationalists won in england.



Scottish nationalists by a landslide in scotland .



In the 6 counties , nationalists took 50% of seats , unionists 44 % and neutrals other.



British unionism has been rejected in every nation , with only the westminster bubble still in denial.



Time to end this union and go along on our merry ways as independent friends and neighbours.



( poor auld nigel dodds losing his seat as well

Has unionism really been rejected Thomas ?  Im sure I don't think of England when voting for nationalist parties, UKIP are unionists as are the Tory's so the English it seems haven't given up on that yet . The English get pretty wound up at sporting events but politically they are very much British



The Scottish vote is maybe different but does wanting home rule ,your own government really mean all those who voted SNP want partition from the union ? Would you still want the Queen as your head of state or would you  really want Princess Sophie on the Scottish throne ?