Labour's betrayal of the working class is a Tory gain

[srb7677]

That'd just whingeing from the sidelines. If Labour could shed its parasitical Left, that uses the party to promote extreme divisive ideas under the banner of socialism, and actually appeal to the many working people (and not the few who think Momentum's the way), it might get the chance to genuinely represent the interests of Working People and their families...

Labour has no chance of winning public favour without the support of a majority of the working class. The left was really never the problem here, a few exceptions to that notwithstanding. The parasitical Blairites who have stolen the party from working people are the problem, as is going to become ever more apparent as they do ever worse in elections. They are failing to recognise that Labour cannot win without the working class, many of whose economic concerns include low pay, crap hours, crap contracts, high rents and house prices, zero security of tenure and lack of social housing. If Labour contimues to ignore these problems to please people like you who will never vote for it anyway, it risks losing the working class forever. And will deserve to. And will never be in power again.

[srb7677]

I reckon that's your/Old Labour's problem. The absorbtion of a few Marxist ideas by activitists on its Left who still try to portray a distinct downtrodden Working Class.     

There isn't.   

There are Working People. There are disadvantaged working people. There are poorly paid working people. There are unskilled working people. There are the unemployed who want to be working people. And there are fairly comfortable working people. And there are the families of all these people — and they can all be found across most of society. And they could all be Labour voters.

But in Labour, this strong group of Far Left agitators loves and promotes the idea of downtrodden masses battling against the bourgeoisie and capitalists because it gives them a reason to preach their divisive claptrap without actually doing much to alleviate the plight of those they claim to be fighting for. And from my (admittedly north and east London-centric) experience, genuine working people want a bit of optimism and the thought of what they actually do in their daily lives can lead to everyone having better lives...

I agree with what you say about the working class but do not accept your carricature of socialists like me. I want to make things better for all working people. Yes I want social housing for those who want it, fair and affordable rents for all and not just the very poor, with security of tenure a right. But I also want affordable housing to buy for those who aspire to that without it all being bought up buy by to letters. Yes I want minimum wages set at the level of a living wage, but with full workers rights for all from day one and not just the low paid.

I want free education for all our young people, not just the poorest. I want a society that works for all working people and not just those at the very bottom. The Labour party has become the party of affluent home owning middle class liberals and therein lies the problem. It doesnt really care that much for anyone who does not think like them. But I also recognise that many millions are struggling under the current economic status quo which has long since ceased to work for them. Many working people are struggling to line the pockets of others, especially landlords charging very high rents because they can. In creating a better society for all, such things need to be challenged head on. If you want to see that as divisive claptrap then you are an obstacle to necessary change.

And what you carricature as far left was simply a social democratic manifesto aiming for a fairer society as already exists in much of western Europe. What is far left about free education, as we once had? What is far left about building more council houses? What is far left about a decent minimum wage, or reasonable rents mandated by law? We used to have the latter within living memory. What is far left about public ownership of the railways and essential utilities? It already exists in most other western modern capitalist economies bar the USA.

To carricature this as far left just demonstrates how far right you have moved. I agree people need a bit of optimism. But that also extends to all those millions of struggling people with little to be optimistic about right now. That Labour has abandomed them, and us, is obvious. But please don't make me out to be some kind of far left extremist because I still believe in making life better for struggling working people, even if that means reining in the abilty of greedy landlords to rip them off just because the market lets them, and challenginging vested interests generally for the good of the majority.

[Sheepy]

That'd just whingeing from the sidelines. If Labour could shed its parasitical Left, that uses the party to promote extreme divisive ideas under the banner of socialism, and actually appeal to the many working people (and not the few who think Momentum's the way), it might get the chance to genuinely represent the interests of Working People and their families...

What Steve said
those who hated everything people like me ever stood for - with the aid of a lot of blatant lying by Starmer himself. As we said about Steve heart in the right place brain took a while to catch up.

[patman post]

And in all the other places of this nation Pat a lot of peole don't want to be talked down to or their vote taken for granted,behaviour not just confined to labour but they have made it an art form.

That'd just whingeing from the sidelines. If Labour could shed its parasitical Left, that uses the party to promote extreme divisive ideas under the banner of socialism, and actually appeal to the many working people (and not the few who think Momentum's the way), it might get the chance to genuinely represent the interests of Working People and their families...

[cromwell]

I reckon that's your/Old Labour's problem. The absorbtion of a few Marxist ideas by activitists on its Left who still try to portray a distinct downtrodden Working Class.     

There isn't.   

There are Working People. There are disadvantaged working people. There are poorly paid working people. There are unskilled working people. There are the unemployed who want to be working people. And there are fairly comfortable working people. And there are the families of all these people — and they can all be found across most of society. And they could all be Labour voters.

But in Labour, this strong group of Far Left agitators loves and promotes the idea of downtrodden masses battling against the bourgeoisie and capitalists because it gives them a reason to preach their divisive claptrap without actually doing much to alleviate the plight of those they claim to be fighting for. And from my (admittedly north and east London-centric) experience, genuine working people want a bit of optimism and the thought of what they actually do in their daily lives can lead to everyone having better lives...

And in all the other places of this nation Pat a lot of peole don't want to be talked down to or their vote taken for granted,behaviour not just confined to labour but they have made it an art form.

[patman post]

This is not actually true. Millions  of relatively low paid workers in retail, hospitality, tourism, nursing, bus driving, care working and numerous others, often living in rented accommodation of some kind, form a highly recognisable [HIGHLIGHT]working class[/HIGHLIGHT] even today.

Yes, the [HIGHLIGHT]working class[/HIGHLIGHT] is smaller than it once was when we were an industrial superpower, but it is still substantial. Enough so that Labour can never win without it.

I reckon that's your/Old Labour's problem. The absorbtion of a few Marxist ideas by activitists on its Left who still try to portray a distinct downtrodden Working Class.     

There isn't.   

There are Working People. There are disadvantaged working people. There are poorly paid working people. There are unskilled working people. There are the unemployed who want to be working people. And there are fairly comfortable working people. And there are the families of all these people — and they can all be found across most of society. And they could all be Labour voters.

But in Labour, this strong group of Far Left agitators loves and promotes the idea of downtrodden masses battling against the bourgeoisie and capitalists because it gives them a reason to preach their divisive claptrap without actually doing much to alleviate the plight of those they claim to be fighting for. And from my (admittedly north and east London-centric) experience, genuine working people want a bit of optimism and the thought of what they actually do in their daily lives can lead to everyone having better lives...

[srb7677]

Great post Steve,I think it true that so many feel labour left them and not the reverse,and I blame the likes of Bliar and Thornberry.

Me too. And I blame Mandelsson also. His influence was always malign and pernicious and remains so today

Where we probably differ a little is that in terms of policy - whatever his faults personally - under Corbyn Labour developed a policy agenda that I felt at least addressed many of the conomic concerns of the working classes or at least tried to. It adopted a raft of policies of a kind I had argued for and supported for decades. So in policy terms at any rate for a short period the party returned to me. Or at least some of it did. Because most of the PLP and large parts of the paid up apparatus were openly plotting against all this. So much of the party was still never with me, something I noticed in spades at the local level when I was a member. The atmosphere was utterly toxic, with constant plotting and scheming against anyone who supported the kind of things I believed in.

Once Corbyn failed and stepped aside, those who hated everything people like me ever stood for - with the aid of a lot of blatant lying by Starmer himself - moved to take the party away from me again. Once again, the party has left me, eventually forcing the morally necessary decision of me to leave it. But it is above all else a case of it abandoning me  again and not the other way around.

[cromwell]

Before I proceed any further as it will come up, I need to say something that is long overdue. I have in the past referred to Brexiteers as gammons, and often cited a few isolated examples of obviouus idiots as supporting evidence. But the fact remains that you get a few idiots on every side of any argument and they are seldom representative of most people. And for working class people - in view of what I am about to discuss - voting Brexit under the circumstances was a highly rational and sensible decision. I almost chose to myself  and only opted for Remain due to concerns about workers' rights. So I wish to apologise to Cromwell in particular but also to Barry and anyone else here whom I might have maligned in the past by associating them with such a label. I was wrong. And I am sorry. I will also take this opportunity to apologise to Deppity Dawg for having labelled him a racist. As someone who has been accused of racism a lot lately by former comrades for daring to question the wisdom of flooding the UK with cheap migrant labour, I accept that I was wrong to mislabel him in this way myself.

Right, now for the meat of what I am about to say.

25 years ago Labour made the tactical decision to take the working class vote for granted under the assumption that it had nowhere else to go. This was the beginning of a process of disengagement from the working class that led Labour to growing increasingly out of touch with it and before long holding it in contempt. It increasingly focussed on lgbt rights and gender equality issues - which are important - but apparently to the exclusion of issues that affected the wider working class.

It opened the floodgates to cheap labour from eastern Europe, and working class people noticed in sector after sector the collapse in pay rates. This was particularly marked in such trades as builders, plumbers, electricians, and plasterers, but was noticed more widely too. When working class people complained about this they were told by Labour that they were imagining it, which just showed how out of touch the party had become. When they continued to complain about it they were called racists. And regarded with open contempt.

The populist right at least acknowledged the problem, and offered a solution - an end to cheap foreign labour from the EU achieved by Brexit. Under the circumstances voting for Brexit from a working class perspective made total sense. It was the only solution being offered by the only people who recognised the problem. Labour just called them all idiots and gammons, and I offer again my heartfelt apologies for any complicity in that when I was still a member.

I for one have also noticed that since 2010 the Tories, admittedly running with a Lib Dem idea in the beginning, have raised the basic rate tax threshold by which I can now earn a lot more before I start paying tax. Labour opposed that at the time, arguing instead for targeted benefits. I have also noticed that since 2015 the Tories have been raising the minimum wage by much higher percentages than Labour ever did. Then came the talk of levelling up and the backing for Brexit against a Labour party which all too obviously regarded working class Brexiteers as idiots, or at least some of them did. These latter are now in charge of Labour.

Right now with all the shortages, Labour wants to solve the problem by allowing cheap foreign labour back in. The Tories are saying companies need to pay more and invest in their work forces rather than rely on cheap foreign labour. It does not take a genius to figure out which will sound more appealing to the working classes. Labour - the party of cheap foreign labour - versus the Tories, the party of better working class pay.

If this sticks, Labour has lost the working class vote forever and deserves to. And it cannot win without it. There are simply not enough affluent middle class home owning liberals obsessed with identity politics to deliver victory to it.

I think the party is doomed.

Great post Steve,I think it true that so many feel labour left them and not the reverse,and I blame the likes of Bliar and Thornberry.

[srb7677]

The problem with the working class is that it has in large part ceased to exist.

This is not actually true. Millions  of relatively low paid workers in retail, hospitality, tourism, nursing, bus driving, care working and numerous others, often living in rented accommodation of some kind, form a highly recognisable working class even today.

Yes, the working class is smaller than it once was when we were an industrial superpower, but it is still substantial. Enough so that Labour can never win without it.

I know that middle class New Labour idiots like Mandelsson once trumpeted the alleged fact that we are all middle class now. But it was nonsense then and remains so now, and was simply a measure of both middle class triumphalist thinking and of how out of touch with working class reality Labour already was. Don't buy into such rubbish through lack of knowing many working class people.

We the working class exist. Labour has abandoned us and holds us in contempt. The Tories recognise our existence and the fact that our votes are there to play for. And although I cannot imagine ever voting Tory myself, under the current circumstances I can understand how many might.

The Tory offering today is at least as different from the offering of Thatcher, as New Labour is from democratic socialism.

I have myself come to acknowledge - whether it be permanent or not remains to be seen - that the Tory party of today is very different in many ways from that which Thatcher gave us. And she holds the accolade in my own mind of being the only politician I ever hated more than I came to hate Blair.

It is easy to understand how other working class people who hated Thatcher can still vote Tory today.

And by the way, my own politics have not changed much. The Labour party has abandoned me again. I still believe in most of the policies of Labour's 2017 manifesto. I believed in them for decades before the manifesto came along. I still believe in them now Starmer is binning them all. Whatever the flaws of Corbyn personally, for a brief period when he happened to be leader, Labour's policy aims coincided with mine. Which is why I joined. They no longer do and are unlikely to. Which is why I have left.

I am far more true to what I believe in than anyone leading Labour right now, some of them apparently believing in power for it's own sake and wholly lacking much in the way of any genuine convictions.

[Borchester]

Before I proceed any further as it will come up, I need to say something that is long overdue. I have in the past referred to Brexiteers as gammons, and often cited a few isolated examples of obviouus idiots as supporting evidence. But the fact remains that you get a few idiots on every side of any argument and they are seldom representative of most people. And for working class people - in view of what I am about to discuss - voting Brexit under the circumstances was a highly rational and sensible decision. I almost chose to myself  and only opted for Remain due to concerns about workers' rights. So I wish to apologise to Cromwell in particular but also to Barry and anyone else here whom I might have maligned in the past by associating them with such a label. I was wrong. And I am sorry. I will also take this opportunity to apologise to Deppity Dawg for having labelled him a racist. As someone who has been accused of racism a lot lately by former comrades for daring to question the wisdom of flooding the UK with cheap migrant labour, I accept that I was wrong to mislabel him in this way myself.

Right, now for the meat of what I am about to say.

25 years ago Labour made the tactical decision to take the working class vote for granted under the assumption that it had nowhere else to go. This was the beginning of a process of disengagement from the working class that led Labour to growing increasingly out of touch with it and before long holding it in contempt. It increasingly focussed on lgbt rights and gender equality issues - which are important - but apparently to the exclusion of issues that affected the wider working class.

It opened the floodgates to cheap labour from eastern Europe, and working class people noticed in sector after sector the collapse in pay rates. This was particularly marked in such trades as builders, plumbers, electricians, and plasterers, but was noticed more widely too. When working class people complained about this they were told by Labour that they were imagining it, which just showed how out of touch the party had become. When they continued to complain about it they were called racists. And regarded with open contempt.

The populist right at least acknowledged the problem, and offered a solution - an end to cheap foreign labour from the EU achieved by Brexit. Under the circumstances voting for Brexit from a working class perspective made total sense. It was the only solution being offered by the only people who recognised the problem. Labour just called them all idiots and gammons, and I offer again my heartfelt apologies for any complicity in that when I was still a member.

I for one have also noticed that since 2010 the Tories, admittedly running with a Lib Dem idea in the beginning, have raised the basic rate tax threshold by which I can now earn a lot more before I start paying tax. Labour opposed that at the time, arguing instead for targeted benefits. I have also noticed that since 2015 the Tories have been raising the minimum wage by much higher percentages than Labour ever did. Then came the talk of levelling up and the backing for Brexit against a Labour party which all too obviously regarded working class Brexiteers as idiots, or at least some of them did. These latter are now in charge of Labour.

Right now with all the shortages, Labour wants to solve the problem by allowing cheap foreign labour back in. The Tories are saying companies need to pay more and invest in their work forces rather than rely on cheap foreign labour. It does not take a genius to figure out which will sound more appealing to the working classes. Labour - the party of cheap foreign labour - versus the Tories, the party of better working class pay.

If this sticks, Labour has lost the working class vote forever and deserves to. And it cannot win without it. There are simply not enough affluent middle class home owning liberals obsessed with identity politics to deliver victory to it.

I think the party is doomed.

To be honest, I think that I preferred you when you were a crazy commie, but I have to say that I agree with a lot of what you have posted.

A few riders...

The problem with the working class is that it has in large part ceased to exist. Time was when indoor plumbing meant that there was water running down the walls. Now we have folk like Deppity wasting their money on over priced motor cars and still with enough for a slice of bread and dripping for Sunday lunch.

The Tories have broadened their base. Time was when their ambition was to keep taxes down and the lesser breeds under control. But last year they spent the nation's tax receipts on this flu out break and there is a good chance that the next PM will be Rishi Sunak. The Tories want power, the left wants a good fight.

I have a few other brilliant insights, but I have forgotten what the are, so will come back later

[srb7677]

Before I proceed any further as it will come up, I need to say something that is long overdue. I have in the past referred to Brexiteers as gammons, and often cited a few isolated examples of obviouus idiots as supporting evidence. But the fact remains that you get a few idiots on every side of any argument and they are seldom representative of most people. And for working class people - in view of what I am about to discuss - voting Brexit under the circumstances was a highly rational and sensible decision. I almost chose to myself  and only opted for Remain due to concerns about workers' rights. So I wish to apologise to Cromwell in particular but also to Barry and anyone else here whom I might have maligned in the past by associating them with such a label. I was wrong. And I am sorry. I will also take this opportunity to apologise to Deppity Dawg for having labelled him a racist. As someone who has been accused of racism a lot lately by former comrades for daring to question the wisdom of flooding the UK with cheap migrant labour, I accept that I was wrong to mislabel him in this way myself.

Right, now for the meat of what I am about to say.

25 years ago Labour made the tactical decision to take the working class vote for granted under the assumption that it had nowhere else to go. This was the beginning of a process of disengagement from the working class that led Labour to growing increasingly out of touch with it and before long holding it in contempt. It increasingly focussed on lgbt rights and gender equality issues - which are important - but apparently to the exclusion of issues that affected the wider working class.

It opened the floodgates to cheap labour from eastern Europe, and working class people noticed in sector after sector the collapse in pay rates. This was particularly marked in such trades as builders, plumbers, electricians, and plasterers, but was noticed more widely too. When working class people complained about this they were told by Labour that they were imagining it, which just showed how out of touch the party had become. When they continued to complain about it they were called racists. And regarded with open contempt.

The populist right at least acknowledged the problem, and offered a solution - an end to cheap foreign labour from the EU achieved by Brexit. Under the circumstances voting for Brexit from a working class perspective made total sense. It was the only solution being offered by the only people who recognised the problem. Labour just called them all idiots and gammons, and I offer again my heartfelt apologies for any complicity in that when I was still a member.

I for one have also noticed that since 2010 the Tories, admittedly running with a Lib Dem idea in the beginning, have raised the basic rate tax threshold by which I can now earn a lot more before I start paying tax. Labour opposed that at the time, arguing instead for targeted benefits. I have also noticed that since 2015 the Tories have been raising the minimum wage by much higher percentages than Labour ever did. Then came the talk of levelling up and the backing for Brexit against a Labour party which all too obviously regarded working class Brexiteers as idiots, or at least some of them did. These latter are now in charge of Labour.

Right now with all the shortages, Labour wants to solve the problem by allowing cheap foreign labour back in. The Tories are saying companies need to pay more and invest in their work forces rather than rely on cheap foreign labour. It does not take a genius to figure out which will sound more appealing to the working classes. Labour - the party of cheap foreign labour - versus the Tories, the party of better working class pay.

If this sticks, Labour has lost the working class vote forever and deserves to. And it cannot win without it. There are simply not enough affluent middle class home owning liberals obsessed with identity politics to deliver victory to it.

I think the party is doomed.