And it's spit your dummy out time

[GerryT]

I don't understand why you are so upset. BJ has a huge mandate from the electorate to get us out of the EU. Ireland is happy with their state within it.

I'm not really upset, I gave a personal opinion about Johnson which people can ignore or do whatever they want. But I attracted a barrage of personal insults, so I explained where my low opinion of Johnson came from, rock solid examples at that.
 

According to the Europhiles we are about to drop off the end of the world. Goodbye UK and good riddance is the sentiment I read in so many comments.  Are you envious that we just might succeed while you and the EU gradually grind to a halt with their protectionist ideology which so stunts innovation, and their greater interest in what's on the menu at their unnecessary interminable dinners, than making decisions?

Not quite, most comments say without a very good deal the UK economy will take a big hit, but it's not a sinking ship. Times will be tough but not forever. But even the best predictions will have the UK initially in a worse state than today, time will tell. As for making decisions, I don't think the UK is a prime example of making decisions considering the balls of brexit and the many extensions it requested.

The EU is no more protectionist than any other "country", I've no doubt the UK will do the exact same in protecting it's local industry, especially in food production.

We don't expect you to understand our wish to leave. Like many others the indoctrination is very well done. The up to now silent majority has at last been given the chance to fight back and we have. I expect Ireland will be fine it's just that we know we will be better.

Oh I think we Irish have a very strong understanding of getting away from an oppressive country controlling you. It's why we broke from the UK and look how well we have succeeded since we did. But the EU is nothing like that and it's not indoctrination, quite the opposite. The UK peoples have been fed a diet of lies blaming the EU on every fault in the UK and it being a money sucking empire. The reality will hit when you leave. But at the end of the day if you want to leave then nobody is trying to stop you or trying to prevent you, thats the democracy of the EU. Pity England doesn't do the same with Scotland.



It looks like the UK will have Johnson at the helm for at least 5yr's, we (Ireland and the EU) will be dealing with him like it or not. Going on his past performance it doesn't look bright.

[GerryT]

Isn't he just asserting the sovereignty of the UK, something which you Europhiles always said we had never lost. We have the ability to leave the EU on whatever date we wish. He's no moron.

No, he's not. He only just agreed the WA agreement with the EU. The ink is still wet and he is proposing/has done to bring in a new law that is contradiction to the WA. If the EU were being awkward they could just say the UK is breaking the WA and it is no longer valid. But seen the time limit helps the EU in the negotiations they will prob say nothing. But it's an indication of the type of man Johnson is.



Your leaving the EU on 31st of January, this law change (end of 2020) has nothing to do with the Brexit exit date. It is regard to a future trade deal, nothing to do with Brexit.

[Thomas]

Scotland as a nation

Scotland is one of Europe's oldest nations. Following the integration of the Parliament of England and Wales and the Parliament of Scotland in 1707, Scotland remained a nation within the new Union state. The nationhood of Scotland and the multi-national character of the United Kingdom have been widely recognised, including by the UK Government, by parties across the political spectrum and by civic society in Scotland.[1] Annex A contains a brief summary of the constitutional history of the nation of Scotland.



Scottish nationhood is more than just a matter of history or a set of national institutions, however. It is also about shared values and aspirations, and follows from the idea of the people of Scotland as a distinct political community, with a right to choose their own future.



Before the independence referendum, the leaders of the parties in Scotland campaigning against independence made a joint statement supporting Scotland's right to choose-



Power lies with the Scottish people and we believe it is for the Scottish people to decide how we are governed.[2]



This understanding of the constitutional position of the people of Scotland within the United Kingdom is not seriously disputed. It has long been accepted by successive UK Governments, and by the wider political community, that the people of Scotland have the right to determine Scotland's continued place in the UK.[3] The Claim of Right for Scotland, signed in 1989 by a range of leading figures and organisations from across political and civic life in Scotland, begins by acknowledging-



the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs.[4]



The Claim of Right has since been recognised and endorsed by both the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament.[5] Scotland's continuing participation in the Union is based on the ongoing agreement and consent of the people that live in Scotland.[6]

[/i][/b]



https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-right-choose-putting-scotlands-future-scotlands-hands/pages/3/">https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotl ... s/pages/3/">https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-right-choose-putting-scotlands-future-scotlands-hands/pages/3/

[Thomas]

I am sorry I didn't know that was the case.  :X:

no problem toots.



look up scotlands claim of right from the sitting in the house of commons in summer 2018 only last year.



https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-07-04/debates/18070455000001/ClaimOfRightForScotland">https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2 ... orScotland">https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-07-04/debates/18070455000001/ClaimOfRightForScotland

That this House endorses the principles of the Claim of Right for Scotland, agreed by the Scottish Constitutional Convention in 1989 and by the Scottish Parliament in 2012, and therefore acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.

[/i][/b]



https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CDP-2018-0171">https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... -2018-0171">https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CDP-2018-0171



https://indyposterboy.scot/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/forsyth_indy-600x432.jpg">

[T00ts]

Every conservative through history , including thatcher and major , asserted the right for scotland to have or choose independence if our people voted in a majority of nationalist mps in scottish seats in your parliament.



Your parliament only last year recognised this by agreeing and supporting scotland claim of right , where this principle is enshrined.



Im not opting for any alternative rule , just that you support your own countries rules and respect the general election result.











English arrogance , nothing more. imagine 678 meps had voted against englands(aka uk) 73  meps and said no you cant leave the predictable reaction in england would be bedlam.



The snp further are not assuming anything but the right to hold a referendum under the terms of democracy you imposed on us through the general election , where through the lens of fptp , if 43% take s the uk out the eu , then 45% is sufficient to offer scots the same opportunity from the uk.



If not may your anti democratic union suffer the same judgement from the people of scotland as england did to english remainers .

I am sorry I didn't know that was the case.  :X:

[Thomas]

No I can't agree. The balance in parliament gives the majority under the voting system we have. You can't just bend the result to suit the voting numbers. You can't opt for alternative rules just to suit the argument. This is evidenced by a referendum when each vote counts separately rather than by constituency.

Scotland will have the same thing. Much as the SNP has won the most constituency seats, when it comes to a Referendum they cannot assume that the numbers will add up to independence. However much the SNP might wish it.

Every conservative through history , including thatcher and major , asserted the right for scotland to have or choose independence if our people voted in a majority of nationalist mps in scottish seats in your parliament.



Your parliament only last year recognised this by agreeing and supporting scotland claim of right , where this principle is enshrined.



Im not opting for any alternative rule , just that you support your own countries rules and respect the general election result.

Scotland will have the same thing. Much as the SNP has won the most constituency seats, when it comes to a Referendum they cannot assume that the numbers will add up to independence. However much the SNP might wish it.

English arrogance , nothing more. imagine 678 meps had voted against englands(aka uk) 73  meps and said no you cant leave the predictable reaction in england would be bedlam.



The snp further are not assuming anything but the right to hold a referendum under the terms of democracy you imposed on us through the general election , where through the lens of fptp , if 43% take s the uk out the eu , then 45% is sufficient to offer scots the same opportunity from the uk.



If not may your anti democratic union suffer the same judgement from the people of scotland as england did to english remainers .

[T00ts]

This cant be left to go unchallenged toots.



Actually he doesnt. 52% of the electorate voted for parties that want a second referendum with remain on the ballot paper. Johnson got 43% of the vote concentrated in one country mainly out of 4.



You cant have your conservative eurosceptic cake and eat it , spouting you have  some sort of majority mandate while telling the snp with a bigger percentage vote share than you that they dont have a mandate to take scotland out the uk.



Same with northern ireland , where unionists were rejected , along with brexit.



This conservative argument backs up what gerry is saying , that despite the eu being portrayed as some democratic monstrosity , it is actually the eu that is the democratic union where the british union is highly undemocratic.

No I can't agree. The balance in parliament gives the majority under the voting system we have. You can't just bend the result to suit the voting numbers. You can't opt for alternative rules just to suit the argument. This is evidenced by a referendum when each vote counts separately rather than by constituency.

Scotland will have the same thing. Much as the SNP has won the most constituency seats, when it comes to a Referendum they cannot assume that the numbers will add up to independence. However much the SNP might wish it.

[Thomas]

uk economic growth under the tories now at its slowest since 2009 , and a mass exodus of skilled workers underway while bojo tells jockland that 43 is bigger than 45 , and 56% is greater than 81% . ::

UK economic growth slowest since early 2009

[/b]



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50725715">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50725715

[Thomas]

I don't understand why you are so upset. BJ has a huge mandate from the electorate to get us out of the EU.

This cant be left to go unchallenged toots.



Actually he doesnt. 52% of the electorate voted for parties that want a second referendum with remain on the ballot paper. Johnson got 43% of the vote concentrated in one country mainly out of 4.



You cant have your conservative eurosceptic cake and eat it , spouting you have  some sort of majority mandate while telling the snp with a bigger percentage vote share than you that they dont have a mandate to take scotland out the uk.



Same with northern ireland , where unionists were rejected , along with brexit.



This conservative argument backs up what gerry is saying , that despite the eu being portrayed as some democratic monstrosity , it is actually the eu that is the democratic union where the british union is highly undemocratic.

[T00ts]

The start of what though. The dialogue coming out of the UK for the past 3 yrs about how the EU is undemocratic, a bully, corrupt etc... do you not think Europeens can read english. Now couple that with an agreed Withdrawal agreement, which allows both parts in the transition period to seek an extension from the other, and what does Johnson do, he decides to write into law a hard finish date thus removing that right from the EU, what's he thinking ??  who does he think he is, has he any though about how the EU will react to this unilateral decision to change the WA ?  He really is a moron.



Yes it is the start, but then tomorrow is always the start. So what the UK needs to figure out, what is it the start of ?  realising they are the small partner might help the UK focus their choices.

I don't understand why you are so upset. BJ has a huge mandate from the electorate to get us out of the EU. Ireland is happy with their state within it. According to the Europhiles we are about to drop off the end of the world. Goodbye UK and good riddance is the sentiment I read in so many comments.  Are you envious that we just might succeed while you and the EU gradually grind to a halt with their protectionist ideology which so stunts innovation, and their greater interest in what's on the menu at their unnecessary interminable dinners, than making decisions?

We don't expect you to understand our wish to leave. Like many others the indoctrination is very well done. The up to now silent majority has at last been given the chance to fight back and we have. I expect Ireland will be fine it's just that we know we will be better.

[Barry]

 what does Johnson do, he decides to write into law a hard finish date thus removing that right from the EU, what's he thinking ??  who does he think he is, has he any though about how the EU will react to this unilateral decision to change the WA ?  He really is a moron.

Isn't he just asserting the sovereignty of the UK, something which you Europhiles always said we had never lost. We have the ability to leave the EU on whatever date we wish. He's no moron.

[Barry]

do you not think Europeens can read english.

If you are a European, you certainly can't write English. Oh, the irony, Gerry.  :hattip

[GerryT]

I have told you many times,that is the start not the end.I can't honestly say you have done yourselves many favours.

The start of what though. The dialogue coming out of the UK for the past 3 yrs about how the EU is undemocratic, a bully, corrupt etc... do you not think Europeens can read english. Now couple that with an agreed Withdrawal agreement, which allows both parts in the transition period to seek an extension from the other, and what does Johnson do, he decides to write into law a hard finish date thus removing that right from the EU, what's he thinking ??  who does he think he is, has he any though about how the EU will react to this unilateral decision to change the WA ?  He really is a moron.



Yes it is the start, but then tomorrow is always the start. So what the UK needs to figure out, what is it the start of ?  realising they are the small partner might help the UK focus their choices.

[Major Sinic]

Maybe you should read your own link. just a little bit down it says

The Treasury figures note payments the EU makes directly to the private sector, such as research grants. In 2016, these were worth an estimated £2.3 billion, so including them could reduce our net contribution further still.



My understanding in 2018 the research grants were about 1.5b, thus reducing the 8.9b to 7.5b. So your wrong, again. POint being its in the region of 7.5b and not 12b.  WHy would anyone leave out payments the EU makes that will disappear post brexit.

I stand by the independent evidence I provided in support of my figures. Even further down there is reference to different ways of measuring contribution. I have used the the most widely used and accepted methodology, which is state payments and receipts not investments to private organisations. There are lies, damned lies, statistics  and Gerry's squirming!

[Sheepy]

A yr ?  the way things are planned the UK leaves in 6 weeks 1 day.

I have told you many times,that is the start not the end.I can't honestly say you have done yourselves many favours.