Workers and shirkers.

[Nick]

It has for decades been obvious to me that most right wingers tend to view most out of work welfare claimants as undeserving scroungers who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning and for whom a life on benefits is a lifestyle choice. Most left wingers tend towards the opposite view, that most out of work welfare claimants are deserving people down on their luck and need a bit of help..

Perhaps the real truth lies somewhere in between. Can I hope for any agreement on that?

Yes there are jobseekers allowance claimants but only a minority of them are long term unemployed. The majority were working three months earlier and will be working again within three months. There is a lot of churn in the statistics, with most using it as a short term lifeline. But there are a significant minority of long term unemployed, some of whom may well be resistant to wanting to work for a variety of reasons.

And as for those on the sick or with disabilities, I don't think any of us could deny that there are many genuine and deserving cases. But no doubt there are some who are swinging the lead.

In my block there are two couples with kids, none of whom show the slightest sign of ever having worked in the ten years or so they have been here. The blokes are frequently sitting around outside the front door of the building smoking joints. Another who was a carer for his genuinely disabled wife, seemed to develop a rapid disability himself after she died, otherwise he would have needed to look for work. The timing just looks very coincidental so I have my suspicions. He once joked to me as I went to work that i had to earn to pay my taxes for his benefits. When he subsequently moaned about only getting a 26p rise, I delighted in informing him that  this was because someone had to pay for the tax threshold hike so I could pay less tax, .

Anyway, my point is that I myself know people whom I suspect to be shirkers. I think many of us do. I think they tend to congregate wherever there are pockets of social or low cost housing.

And yet in my workplace we are taking on a constant stream of new workers who were previously unemployed and looking for work. Many of them are good workers. We also have people with mental and physical disabilities working for us, so unless severe such things need not be a total barrier to work.

But those of us who are wise should not be deciding how many of the out of work are genuine and how many are shirkers on personal anecdotes alone. Fact is there are both deserving claimants and shirkers on benefits, but without accurate statistics none of us are truly equipped to decide how many of each in percentage terms. It is too temptingly easy just to pluck figures out of the air to suit our own prejudices.

I haven't looked for any statistics myself which is why I am not making any claims about the numbers. Those who might be tempted to come here and say most are this or most are that, I hope you can back it up with statistical evidence.

If you ever drive through a rough council estate where the shops are boarded up, I can guarantee you the offy and the bookies are never boarded up.
That in it's self speaks volumes to me.

[Borchester]

A

When I was asked in the past:- "how many people work where you work?" I answered (and I was not joking,) "about half of them." I got fed up with carrying the dead weight.

And I was one of the skivers. I did sod all, slowly and on overtime when I could.

Thank you Pappy. Your gallant efforts kept me and mine in the fashion we had no right to expect, but of which we took full advantage.

:)

[papasmurf]

There are a few of those too. But if they work in the private sector they are at least costing taxpayers nothing. And such people tend to end up being sacked in the end. There is a fundamental truism about being in work. The best way to guarantee staying in it is to work hard at it and be good at it. Do that and even in lean times you will be one of the last to be got rid of.

When I was asked in the past:- "how many people work where you work?" I answered (and I was not joking,) "about half of them." I got fed up with carrying the dead weight.

[srb7677]

Frankly most of the shirkers I know are in work.

There are a few of those too. But if they work in the private sector they are at least costing taxpayers nothing. And such people tend to end up being sacked in the end. There is a fundamental truism about being in work. The best way to guarantee staying in it is to work hard at it and be good at it. Do that and even in lean times you will be one of the last to be got rid of.

[papasmurf]

Anyway, my point is that I myself know people whom I suspect to be shirkers. 

Frankly most of the shirkers I know are in work.

[srb7677]

It has for decades been obvious to me that most right wingers tend to view most out of work welfare claimants as undeserving scroungers who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning and for whom a life on benefits is a lifestyle choice. Most left wingers tend towards the opposite view, that most out of work welfare claimants are deserving people down on their luck and need a bit of help.. 

Perhaps the real truth lies somewhere in between. Can I hope for any agreement on that? 

Yes there are jobseekers allowance claimants but only a minority of them are long term unemployed. The majority were working three months earlier and will be working again within three months. There is a lot of churn in the statistics, with most using it as a short term lifeline. But there are a significant minority of long term unemployed, some of whom may well be resistant to wanting to work for a variety of reasons.

And as for those on the sick or with disabilities, I don't think any of us could deny that there are many genuine and deserving cases. But no doubt there are some who are swinging the lead.

In my block there are two couples with kids, none of whom show the slightest sign of ever having worked in the ten years or so they have been here. The blokes are frequently sitting around outside the front door of the building smoking joints. Another who was a carer for his genuinely disabled wife, seemed to develop a rapid disability himself after she died, otherwise he would have needed to look for work. The timing just looks very coincidental so I have my suspicions. He once joked to me as I went to work that i had to earn to pay my taxes for his benefits. When he subsequently moaned about only getting a 26p rise, I delighted in informing him that  this was because someone had to pay for the tax threshold hike so I could pay less tax, . 

Anyway, my point is that I myself know people whom I suspect to be shirkers. I think many of us do. I think they tend to congregate wherever there are pockets of social or low cost housing.

And yet in my workplace we are taking on a constant stream of new workers who were previously unemployed and looking for work. Many of them are good workers. We also have people with mental and physical disabilities working for us, so unless severe such things need not be a total barrier to work.

But those of us who are wise should not be deciding how many of the out of work are genuine and how many are shirkers on personal anecdotes alone. Fact is there are both deserving claimants and shirkers on benefits, but without accurate statistics none of us are truly equipped to decide how many of each in percentage terms. It is too temptingly easy just to pluck figures out of the air to suit our own prejudices.

I haven't looked for any statistics myself which is why I am not making any claims about the numbers. Those who might be tempted to come here and say most are this or most are that, I hope you can back it up with statistical evidence.