Think Keir needs another rug.

[Thomas]

another old article from the labour supporting guardian which is as true today as when it was written 7 years ago.

The crisis in the Labour party goes much deeper than Ed Miliband

John Harris

The party's senior figures have done little in the past four years to indicate an understanding of the problems besetting its politics

In 2005, Labour was elected on 35.2% of the vote and the support of just under 22% of the total electorate. In 2010, its numbers were 29% and a miserable 19%. The party now finds itself at about 35% – which, on the possibly optimistic basis of a two-thirds turnout, would give it the support of just over 23% of the voting public. Beneath those numbers lie slumps in Labour's support that are only just becoming clear: a jaw-dropping decline among working-class Scots, for instance; or the fact that its support in some once solid Labour areas of England is now so soft that Ukip can make hay.

Worse still, they sit at the heart of a feedback loop that is making big problems even worse. As Labour becomes estranged from its bases of support, it draws more and more on the self-selecting Westminster cliques that now dominate the top of the party. In turn, more and more people are alienated, and the party's support wobbles and shrinks yet further

More generally, beyond Labour's half-decent, slightly staid policy platform, has anything Miliband and other party figures have done over the past four years indicated a deep understanding of the huge crisis besetting Labour politics? And do they have any idea of what a more credible centre-left politics might look like 15 years from now? Or is it merely the continuation of a rather arrogant, Labour-knows-best kind of approach, now with an occasional leftward tilt?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/23/crisis-labour-party-ed-miliband

The very same people , milliband cooper reeve etc etc that harris was talking about in 2014 in this article are the same people back in charge at various levels of this current new labour reincarnation with the same attitudes and problems , if not even bigger problems , that beset them prior to corbyn.

There is selective amnesia with new labour and its supporters of why the labour party is in the state that its in . Mostly they ignore fact and history , and lay the blame at corbyns door while continuing to worship at the feet of a man who may have won them three election victories decades ago in another political age , but left the labour party a burnt out hollowed shell in the process totally estranged from the majority while pissing on labours old values many once held dear.

...and here we are again  . Its incredible listening to the guff certain people of blairite political persuasion trot  out.

[Thomas]

Remember as well when current labour politician rachael reeve was saying this on the run up to the last election the red tories contested in 2015 ?

Shortly after being appointed, 18 months ago, Reeves said Labour would be tougher than the Conservatives on cutting the benefits bill; this week, she said she had "robust" policies to ensure that the spending would reduce.

However, Reeves said Labour did not want to be seen to be the party of the welfare state. "We are not the party of people on benefits. We don't want to be seen, and we're not, the party to represent those who are out of work," she said. "Labour are a party of working people, formed for and by working people."

https://archive.ph/DmdTM

[Sheepy]

Quiet frankly, every other nation has potential for acting to weaken us in any way and for any reason at any time.
Take your pick, I'm sure you are  well enough informed to be able to recognise those that despise us the most.

Well obviously, not as you haven't told me yet. Sounds like a lot like we can invent one though so we can cuddle up in a little ball together.

[Thomas]

The Tory government is doing away with democracy a bit at a time thinking  no one will notice.

theres no good asking a red tory like good old to save you from the bad tories pappy.

Remember when keir starmers adivsor and best mate ed milliband was in charge he was activley courting tories to advise and help labour if they got into government and was promising to be harder on benefits than the tories ?

Labour to call on Michael Heseltine if it wins election


The former Conservative deputy prime minister is being lined up by the shadow business secretary, Chuka Umunna, to advise Labour in government




https://archive.md/7SPYn

The idea the peoples of these islands need or want another pro european red tory government in charge is laughable.

[Thomas]

Quiet frankly, every other nation has potential for acting to weaken us in any way and for any reason at any time.
Take your pick, I'm sure you are  well enough informed to be able to recognise those that despise us the most.

No country on this earth despises the uk more than the labour party . We dont need protecting from russia  or china , we need protecting from anti democrats like you and your party.

[Thomas]

It's noticed Smurf,. All part the great illusion of being the protectors of everything good and great in this realm.

They backed democracy when it mattered over brexit ,something your lot couldnt and wont do.

[Thomas]

When you say that , you actually say we have no democracy here that you recognise.
Labour, acted well within our democratic limits. It was the idea that parliamentary  scrutiny ,could be avoided by the use a referendum decision that was incorrect. And outside of the uses we put democracy to.
The only question I would ask is was that situation created deliberately. Or a blunder, that has allowed people such as you to question the rights of Parliament .

nope another cop out. There was a free and fair referendum we all participated in , we all knew the rules before hand , and we gave an asnwer , and labour didnt like that answer and tried to stop democracy being enacted.( as they did in scotland in 1979)

Not only that , you even pissed on the backs of your own voters , some 60 % of labour constituencies who voted brexit , and couldnt understand why the public gave you a massive kicking in 2019.

You tried to blame corbyn and brainwashing by the tories , when everyone could see the public , especially labours own red wall brexit supporting  former voters , couldnt stand starmers and new labours anti democratic stance and behaviour.

You are still re writing history and in denial about it all today , and will need further punishment at the ballot box.

[Good old]

The Tory government is doing away with democracy a bit at a time thinking  no one will notice.

It's noticed Smurf,. All part the great illusion of being the protectors of everything good and great in this realm.

[Good old]

Labour dont know the meaning of the word democracy.

When you say that , you actually say we have no democracy here that you recognise.
Labour, acted well within our democratic limits. It was the idea that parliamentary   scrutiny ,could be avoided by the use a referendum decision that was incorrect. And outside of the uses we put democracy to.
The only question I would ask is was that situation created deliberately. Or a blunder, that has allowed people such as you to question the rights of Parliament .

[Good old]

Well, if you could be a little clearer on who these enemies are? do you have a list?

Quiet frankly, every other nation has potential for acting to weaken us in any way and for any reason at any time.
Take your pick, I'm sure you are  well enough informed to be able to recognise those that despise us the most.

[papasmurf]

Labour dont know the meaning of the word democracy.

The Tory government is doing away with democracy a bit at a time thinking  no one will notice.

[Sheepy]

Nothing gives our enemies in this world more joy than that suggestion.

Well, if you could be a little clearer on who these enemies are? do you have a list? 

[Thomas]

Yes Thomas , the anti democratic tag attached  to anyone that opposes Brexit, is hard to shake off

Nope more waffle and putrid deflection. Labour and especially people like keir starmer tried to stop the implementation of a free and fair democrtic vote in 2016 by their actions in parliament from 2016 to the 2019 GE.

The whole of the uk knows it  , and its baggage that starmer cannot shake off.

Labour dont know the meaning of the word democracy.

[Good old]

stopp waffling on about saving demcoracy. Democracy doesnt need saving , and if it did , we wouldnt be looking to labour to do it .

Whatever the publics view on any subject , the labour party are always sure to oppose it.

The anti democratic tag labour have around their necks is proving very hard for them to shake off isnt it good old?

Yes Thomas , the anti democratic tag attached  to anyone that opposes Brexit, is hard to shake off . Odd really because the real beauty of our democracy is its accommodation of open dissent within the walls of parliament.
So when you claim Labour have been undemocratic that's your idea of democracy at work to undermine the rights already enshrined in our democratic system. If you want to undermine our democracy I will ask again replace it with what.? Why do I bother?
I am pretty clear about what democracy is , and it's practical potential. It seems to me it's you that waffles, about democracy as if it could ever be the answer to all our problems simply by acting on  the answers to simple questions.  Nothing gives our enemies in this world more joy than that suggestion.

[Thomas]

Here you go again .do I claim what we call democracy is spotless?

stopp waffling on about saving demcoracy. Democracy doesnt need saving , and if it did , we wouldnt be looking to labour to do it .

Whatever the publics view on any subject , the labour party are always sure to oppose it.

The anti democratic tag labour have around their necks is proving very hard for them to shake off isnt it good old?