Think Keir needs another rug.

[Good old]

It tells the exact story that I predicted you'd tell above. How long do you think the effects of that lasted, and how the debt was serviced?
You also ignored that the Tories had flattened the climb and it was starting to come down.

I don't tell the story . The chart does. Ten years after the  event the levels flatten , not exactly , they show  a shade of decline , prior to covid, that's all you can claim because the figures still remained unstable going up and down. And of course you , would sooner look at how the debt was serviced if it helps you ignore the facts behind what coursed the use of debt to cover the problem created by bankers.

[Nick]

Thanks for the chart .Nick. Tells a story very well ,so tell me when did the banking crisis happen No as you seem confused I,ll tell you 2008. When did Labour leave power? I,ll tell you 2010. Of course borrowing climbed quickest in that two year period , it was the period spent trying to combat the damage and potential damage done to not just what was left of the U.K. banking industry but the economy as well. There are ten years on that chart preceding that two year period, which make it totally clear that excessive borrowing was not the case for Labour outside of that two year period dealing with the effects of a massive banking f—k up. So what was or is the Tory excuse for their steady continuation of excessive borrowing. That note was a fact ,a silly little aside between officials, and it could be said the cupboard was bare after the lengths Labour ,had gone to . But it wasn't so bare as for Tory borrowing to continue to this present day at a rate not that much below when it was at its highest to actually combat , the initial well publicised crisis. The outstanding feature of that chart taking into  account why the extreme borrowing started after ten years of relatively acceptable borrowing.  Is why for one reason or another , have the Tories carried on borrowing at record levels whilst all the time taking money out of just about every public service we have.? 

It tells the exact story that I predicted you'd tell above. How long do you think the effects of that lasted, and how the debt was serviced?
You also ignored that the Tories had flattened the climb and it was starting to come down. 

[Good old]

The steepest rise in debt was under Labour (between blue lines), from the point the Tories got in it started to slow, right up until COVID struck. It had even started to come down, but you keep believing the nonsense that it was the Tories fault. Labour drove the car to the top of the hill, let the handbrake off and then pointed at the Tories for crashing the car.



"Good Luck, there is no money".



Suppose that was the Conservatives fault also, was it?

Thanks for the chart .Nick. Tells a story very well ,so tell me when did the banking crisis happen ? No as you seem confused I,ll tell you 2008. When did Labour leave power? I,ll tell you 2010. Of course borrowing climbed quickest in that two year period , it was the period spent trying to combat the damage and potential damage done to not just what was left of the U.K. banking industry but the economy as well. There are ten years on that chart preceding that two year period, which make it totally clear that excessive borrowing was not the case for Labour outside of that two year period dealing with the effects of a massive banking f—k up. So what was or is the Tory excuse for their steady continuation of excessive borrowing.? That note was a fact ,a silly little aside between officials, and it could be said the cupboard was bare after the lengths Labour ,had gone to . But it wasn't so bare as for Tory borrowing to continue to this present day at a rate not that much below when it was at its highest to actually combat , the initial well publicised crisis. The outstanding feature of that chart taking into  account why the extreme borrowing started after ten years of relatively acceptable borrowing.  Is why for one reason or another , have the Tories carried on borrowing at record levels whilst all the time taking money out of just about every public service we have.?

[Nick]

yep , and as i keep pointing out , it happened in scotland as well where labour left ticking timebombs for the snp administration that we had to deal with. Similarly in wales , it would be the same.

We all know if labour get into power, be prepared to be left vastly out of pocket.

Just waiting for the "It was a world banking crisis" that caused it, not Labour. What the hell do they think the last 2 years has been? 

[Thomas]

The steepest rise in debt was under Labour (between blue lines), from the point the Tories got in it started to slow, right up until COVID struck. It had even started to come down, but you keep believing the nonsense that it was the Tories fault. Labour drove the car to the top of the hill, let the handbrake off and then pointed at the Tories for crashing the car.



"Good Luck, there is no money".



Suppose that was the Conservatives fault also, was it?

yep , and as i keep pointing out , it happened in scotland as well where labour left ticking timebombs for the snp administration that we had to deal with. Similarly in wales , it would be the same.

We all know if labour get into power, be prepared to be left vastly out of pocket.

[Thomas]

Fact is Good Old, with Boris blundering daily from crisis to f*ck up to disaster, if Labour can't get elected after this then its good night Vienna. For me the Tories are just one enemy - you know what you are getting. The Labour party has created enemies out of the people it needs to vote for it in order to get elected because some of us don't fit the victim group narrative. Until they get that divisive identity politics has destroyed trust in the party they are doomed to keep repeating the same mistake over and over again. I've said it before, Labour has made me its enemy, not the other way around

totally agree deppity. It was summed up by scottish trade union man jimmy reid , when he said " i never left labour.......labour left me".

The world is a different place now , those days are long gone , and labour cant embrace the modern world or it politics.

[Nick]

Oh, stop it Nick. Just try explaining why government borrowing was at £1.2 trillion in 2010 after the banking crisis not before it after it. 9 years of austerity later , screwing every major service and many smaller ones , freezing wages for most of the period, while they were at it, the figure stood at £1.8 .trillion . No banker crisis, to cram their style,  that's if you excuse the efforts that went into making sure the banks now sit on more than before they f—led the lot of us. The figure is presently£2.2 trillion, and rising, that is completely excusable. As we all know what that £400 billion is being spent on. But what had they been spending £600 billion  extra borrowing on. In a period of austerity for the vast majority of people in this country? That poster says a debt mountain, it wasn't it was a foothill to what has become a mountain.
And remember before the banker crisis the figure was under £500 billion.

The steepest rise in debt was under Labour (between blue lines), from the point the Tories got in it started to slow, right up until COVID struck. It had even started to come down, but you keep believing the nonsense that it was the Tories fault. Labour drove the car to the top of the hill, let the handbrake off and then pointed at the Tories for crashing the car.



"Good Luck, there is no money".



Suppose that was the Conservatives fault also, was it?

[Good old]

You've missed out first good banks appeared under Labour!

Oh, stop it Nick. Just try explaining why government borrowing was at £1.2 trillion in 2010 after the banking crisis not before it after it. 9 years of austerity later , screwing every major service and many smaller ones , freezing wages for most of the period, while they were at it, the figure stood at £1.8 .trillion . No banker crisis, to cram their style,  that's if you excuse the efforts that went into making sure the banks now sit on more than before they f—led the lot of us. The figure is presently£2.2 trillion, and rising, that is completely excusable. As we all know what that £400 billion is being spent on. But what had they been spending £600 billion  extra borrowing on. In a period of austerity for the vast majority of people in this country? That poster says a debt mountain, it wasn't it was a foothill to what has become a mountain.
And remember before the banker crisis the figure was under £500 billion. 

[Nick]

You've missed out first good banks appeared under Labour!

[Borchester]

Fact is Good Old, with Boris blundering daily from crisis to f*ck up to disaster, if Labour can't get elected after this then its good night Vienna. For me the Tories are just one enemy - you know what you are getting. The Labour party has created enemies out of the people it needs to vote for it in order to get elected because some of us don't fit the victim group narrative. Until they get that divisive identity politics has destroyed trust in the party they are doomed to keep repeating the same mistake over and over again. I've said it before, Labour has made me its enemy, not the other way around

All true.

Boris is stumbling around looking for a cause that will unite the aspirational working and lower middle classes behind him. The labour party can barely conceal its contempt. The brothers and sisters want victims.

I may have mentioned this earlier, but a week or so ago a lad turned up on my doorstep canvassing for the Labour party. I got the standard spiel about the Tories being shit in an iron bucket and said that he was probably right, but I was an old white man and what did Sir Keir intend to do for me. And the kid went on about the need to fight racism and I said oh F@@@ off, which was rude of me but something the lad was bound to hear a lot of.

[DeppityDawg]

I had written an extended reply to this very fair reflection of one or two various issues. And I thank you for it.
This is much briefer because my reasons for persisting with backing the maintenance of what is the real purpose of Labour, does not alter It's not for me a case of avoiding all of the issues you raise. It's a case of knowing that our democracy has to survive, if not as it is but a form not far removed from what it is. That is if we support  the capitalist system that is the life blood of all of us in this democracy.
Yes what we have is two cheeks of an arse. That's because it is trying to be two sides of capitalism . It's my opinion one side gets far more shit attached it in the all round .And  in eleven years they have done nothing to dispel that opinion. They are undermining our democracy ,their ethical behaviour laughs in the face of the ethics and law that is the basis of our democracy. I know dam well , nothing or no group or party is perfect, but  if we have lost the ability to agree to disagree with people we are not completely in tune with, at the peril of that democracy then I'm of the opinion our democracy is in mortal danger.
So, what's the alternative? And  this is where even here nobody fully answers. Not surprised by that.because quiet honestly the answer is the alternative is always going to be governed by nature. The human is primed to to disagree, Only the ability to agree to disagree, or allow one self to be forced to agree can control that.
It's quiet democratic to keep voting for one party individual , but if by doing so you lose the will to remove a party ,individual that is corrupt then it follows you will have lost the means to do so.
At this moment in time far to many people are advocating we follow this path and the picture I paint is a real possibility.
I personally would not let the fact that I don't agree with everyone in my party be the main reason for rejecting its use to remove my real enemy. The Tories, certainly don't.and that's the real reason for what you see as the situation being correct. I do thank you DD, because at least it's a very balanced response to some of my views.

Fact is Good Old, with Boris blundering daily from crisis to f*ck up to disaster, if Labour can't get elected after this then its good night Vienna. For me the Tories are just one enemy - you know what you are getting. The Labour party has created enemies out of the people it needs to vote for it in order to get elected because some of us don't fit the victim group narrative. Until they get that divisive identity politics has destroyed trust in the party they are doomed to keep repeating the same mistake over and over again. I've said it before, Labour has made me its enemy, not the other way around

[Thomas]

Starmers labour doing worse than corbyn. Brilliant stuff good old.

[Thomas]

We have done this all before Thomas, The effect of PFI was minimal in comparison with the borrowing carried out by recent Tory regimes. And at least we got some absolutely needed improvements to our public health system.All we have from The Tories is the results of successive cuts regardless of ever more borrowing. And the Tories renamed PFI and carried on using  it . And how invented its use . John frigging Major. You rant on mate we have done it all before.

Tony blair and new labour governed in the sunshine of an economic boom left to them by the hard work of the previous tory regimes , johnson faced borrowing billions off the back of a once in a century pandemic  , and still labour managed to leave an incredible mess behind for others to deal with .....not just the tories in england , but the snp in scotland too.

Its always someones elses fault according to labour , never theirs . 

Labour can scream they are fiscally responsible for eternity but the voting public know damn well , in both scotland and england , labours true colours. Tax and spend and a legacy of needless debt which generations have to pay back.

[Good old]

No they didnt. PFI debt wasnt for example put onto labours books , it was put onto the books of the incoming tory and snp administrations which is why it was so beloved of blair and brown.

Again we go back over old history.

In lanarkshire alond , in the mid nougties , they needed 150 million for example to build some new schools and a hospital . The labour council asked holyrood , then a lib /lab coaltion , who got the approval of your tewo mates blair and brown to "PFI " the original quote of £150 million which then resulted in the scottish taxpayer paying back over 7 times the original capital cost over some 30 to 40 years .

All this debt wasnt put onto the books of your heroes. In some cases the new snp adminsitration tried and successfully managed to renogotiate some of the dodgy labour party pfi deals and save the scottish taxpayer millions.

Stop hiding behind the bank crises when we know labour are completely and utterly fiscally incompetent when in power.

We have done this all before Thomas, The effect of PFI was minimal in comparison with the borrowing carried out by recent Tory regimes. And at least we got some absolutely needed improvements to our public health system.All we have from The Tories is the results of successive cuts regardless of ever more borrowing. And the Tories renamed PFI and carried on using  it . And how invented its use . John frigging Major. You rant on mate we have done it all before.

[Thomas]

This article was being written ten years after labour were booted out of holyrood.

Legacy PFI contract payments in Scotland top 'staggering' £1bn

SNP blasts previous Labour-led Scottish Executive as Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland statistics for the 2016/17 financial year are revealed

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/legacy-pfi-contract-payments-scotland-11074087

i hope the people of scotland and england never again allow your fiscally incompetent party anywhere near the reigns of power ever again. Blairs legacy is dust , and we all know it.