Think Keir needs another rug.

[Sheepy]

I mind you telling us the same in 2019 , the silent remain majority were going to sweep labour , the champions of the EU to victory , and how the "country" had changed its mind over brexit.

How we laughed.

Tell me good old , do labour and its supporters actually go out into the big world and speak to people , or do you all still shout at each other in your echo chambers?

Nobody blames them, they live in fantasy land, we couldn't care less about Boris and Christmas parties, we care that he has lied to everyone waffled his way through and done nothing about what he was voted in for, while thinking he could keep everyone in line with carrot dangling and pure lies. on the other hand, Labour will fantasise it will keep the Westminster party grinding on. Nobody will forget they all agree on punishing the electorate.

[Thomas]

Two cheeks of the same arse. Why wouldn't it resemble that at times? We live by a capitalist  system, that funds all of us . Our democracy is not structured to vote for an individual leader. And it's not likely to give us government that would bite the hand that feeds us.
I don't mind admitting I take on ideas that could be shared by a Tory, or that I can share some  of srb,s.
There are potentially 11,000,000 Plus Labour voters of which all will be between me and him the vast majority are only idealistic so much as they don't appreciate being ruled by Tories.
If srb, wants to belittle people that would vote for the present Labour leadership and the party of course by using labels that may or may not accurately  apply that is up to him. If that means he isn't prepared to support the party in its present form then I'm saddend. I can however fully understand you promoting what he thinks, as it has the potential to weaken any effective opposition to Tory ineptitude, and all the other vices they have always had, and are presently ramming down our throats, at the expense of the sanctity of our democratic system.

I will let srb steve answere the majority of this , as a former labour member , but all i will say is after what the new labour people in labour did to corbyn and the left of the party , its quite clear the old one party to fit all sizes no longer works and anyone with any sense who calls himself a socialist could no more put new labour into power than he could put a tory in.

[Thomas]

I should rub those figures out. Any number of polls at this time show the mood is we should not have made the break, all to be found on Google, including U-Gov. They do reflect your approach to fact though.

I mind you telling us the same in 2019 , the silent remain majority were going to sweep labour , the champions of the EU to victory , and how the "country" had changed its mind over brexit.

How we laughed.

Tell me good old , do labour and its supporters actually go out into the big world and speak to people , or do you all still shout at each other in your echo chambers?

[Thomas]

 at the expense of the sanctity of our democratic system.

You dont have a democratic system. You have a sham of democracy as i keep saying , which offers up false choices and false hope to millions .

Your party spent 4 years trying to disrespect a legitimate referendum and you tell us you are the people to trust? I just fell off the office chair reading that drivel there good old.

Whatever the faults of bojo , he and his party at least have the mother wit to get on board with democracy when the writing is on the wall , while labour go into denial as ever .

[Thomas]

Reading the first few paragraphs of this highly typical response from you is all it needs to lock into the already well known fact that quiet honestly you are only in tune with the world of Thomas.

The world of Thomas as you put it is presenting to you the political facts of the last 11 years. Dont shoot the messenger because you cant accept the reality of the message.

You are more in touch than me you say.

5 - 0 to brexiters at uk level from the 2015 election onwards , where each time , people like you told me the silent pro european majority where going to rise up , vote to remain in the eu and crush the tories.

We are still waiting.

Is that based on the fact we have a nasty corrupt excuse for a government right now,

yawn.

of course the last despicable labour government was all honourable and above board . Stope it good old.

Tony blairs legacy is ashes , the recent withdrawal from afghanistan being  the latest example.

No I haven't I have made few forecasts  to you at least.

We both know what you said to me about keri starmer and the labour right , or new new labour. When you win an election mate let me know. Until then , its just more of good olds pining for a return to the mess that was new labour.

blame for a wide spread international banking crisis

The "international " banking crises  , which was resticted to those nations that follwed the anglo american model , wasnt the reason labour were booted out in 2010. I spent years of my time posting reams of info from scotland and uk wide of why that was , PFI , the disgust of old traditional labour voters of red tories , and many more issues.

will come a breaking point, say what you will.

I dont deny it. You participate in a two horse sham , where labour have a 50/50 chance , so of course its possible. I say it wont be just yet for reasons previously given like brexit.

The bottom line is , they are the only hope for our democracy,

labour dont offer hope for democracy. What uitter nonsense. Labour offer a continuation of the status quo , a fag papers differnce to what the tories are offering without the union jacks for the english or saltires for us scottish  .

You cannot accept your party is part of the problem rather than the solution .

[Sheepy]

I should rub those figures out. Any number of polls at this time show the mood is we should not have made the break, all to be found on Google, including U-Gov. They do reflect your approach to fact though.

Dreaming that up now good old, facing another good drubbing, I guess. 

[Good old]

In hindsight, do you think the UK was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?

• 
  Right to leave
  67.2%
• 
  Wrong to leave
  32.8%

poor auld keir good old.

I always say the same thing , all my life i have noticed , no matter what the subject (brexit scot indy 1979 devolution ref etc) labour are always on the wrong side of public opinion which is why they always seem to struggle at a GE.

We know best tories bad just doesnt cut it anymore mate.

Best GE poll bearing in mind the next uk GE is two years away , still doesnt show labour being able to command a majority government. At the moment polls are showing hung parliament , and i think the tories will recover to wipe labour off the political map in two years time , with again brexit being pro european starmers political achillies heel.

I should rub those figures out. Any number of polls at this time show the mood is we should not have made the break, all to be found on Google, including U-Gov. They do reflect your approach to fact though.

[Good old]

still laughing reading this . The new labour credentials keep shining though good old.

Two cheeks of the same tory backside , right wing red tory and small c blue tory .

As srb says , you are still punting the tired old tony blair political discourse from the late nineties. Crack on though dont mind me.

Two cheeks of the same arse. Why wouldn't it resemble that at times? We live by a capitalist  system, that funds all of us . Our democracy is not structured to vote for an individual leader. And it's not likely to give us government that would bite the hand that feeds us. 
I don't mind admitting I take on ideas that could be shared by a Tory, or that I can share some  of srb,s.
There are potentially 11,000,000 Plus Labour voters of which all will be between me and him the vast majority are only idealistic so much as they don't appreciate being ruled by Tories.
If srb, wants to belittle people that would vote for the present Labour leadership and the party of course by using labels that may or may not accurately  apply that is up to him. If that means he isn't prepared to support the party in its present form then I'm saddend. I can however fully understand you promoting what he thinks, as it has the potential to weaken any effective opposition to Tory ineptitude, and all the other vices they have always had, and are presently ramming down our throats, at the expense of the sanctity of our democratic system.

[Good old]

Im more in touch with uk politics than you. How many times recent years have you got it so so wrong?

You can't keep hiding behind corbyn as the base of all new labours woes. You told me starmer was a tactical genius who would over time take labour to power , and how many times have you been proved wrong?

Why lecture me about being partisan to a party? We are talking about the uk government at westminster , a de facto english parliament dominated by labour and conservative two parties i do not support in any way , and we are swapping opinions on them.

You supprot labour , and are without doubt despite protestations to the contrary partisan in support of them. Similarly , you are not partisan in supprot of your "country" , as you are fully behind the pro european new labour headed by quisling starmer.ok lets look at the political facts shall we?

New labour have been out of power for 11 years at westminster , and since 2007 in scotland. From 2010 to 2015 , you limped along under the leadership of starmers mate milliband , and suffered defeat after defeat , even to the point in 2015 , the liberals mocked you for your cowardly stance on a brexit referendum.

The left wing tried to take back their party from you under corbyn in 2015 , and for the next four years , new labour starmer and their supproters did everything they could to undermine the left of your party , so much so many new labourites did more pr damage to corbyn than the tories or snp.

The final insult was starmers disasterous generalship of labour party policy in 2019 , where you forced corbyn into a pro EU stance against the wishes of 60 % of labour constituencies in England , with predicatable consequences.

Once starmer was elected , and new labour back in control , starmer first big test was the hartelpool by election , which he failed misreably. Putting a pro european into a leave seat to test the water , and was smashed.

Despite all the issues and problems , especially covid , both the scottish government and english one have had , labour in scotland and england can not touch either government with  a bargepole.

The poll i gave you up the thread ha slabour bumping shoulders in scotland with the greens;D , and in England , within margin of error you cannot barely get above the tories  , certainly i havent seen one single poll where labour can command support in england to win any sort of majority to from a government.

These are the political facts of the matter 11 years after labour lost power , and so far , i am confident in saying no one wants starmer or new labour pro european centrists back in power.

When you win an election mate , come back to me , until then, its all hot wind from you good old and denial.
I refute your case and urge anyone to keep new labour out , if they dont want to be worse off and back in the EU.
Same was said about theresa may , worst pm in modern uk history. The empty platitudes get boring after a while.
Nope dumb and dumber remember? Boris the former starmer the latter.?
A spade is a spade.

Deal with it.The party you support did. More of their remain lies , which is why i keep telling you you wont get back inot power anytime soon.

What i suspect will happen , just as you reappeared when you scented tory blood , you will dissappear when starmer loses the next GE.

As ever , we will have to teach you reality at the ballot box , until then , we have to listen to your delusions and false hopes.
Im a democrat , i accepted brexit .I also stand by the fact i told my fellows that while we remain in the uk , we get what england wants , hence my support for indy.
oh please good old , not this again. There isnt a single poll that ha showed a majority labour government as far back as i can remember certainly not under starmer.

We have been hearing about this mythical silent majority now who are going to vote labour and put the pro europeans back in power for the last ten years or more.

The reality is the public are pissed off with covid and many other issues including the scottish and english governments , but no one is daft enough to want starmer and new labour back in power . I suspect boris is getting a slap on the wrist from tory voters to pul his socks up nothing more , but time will tell.
The point is your party does , and we all know it. Its a millstone around your necks , and why i keep telling you half the popualtion in england , especially the english north , wont support you.

You wont listen though , so prepare for reality at the ballot box instead of delusion at polls.




Mod edit
Cromwell

Reading the first few paragraphs of this highly typical response from you is all it needs to lock into the already well known fact that quiet honestly you are only in tune with the world of Thomas. You are more in touch than me you say. Is that based on the fact we have a nasty corrupt excuse for a government right now, which I would refuse to accept, and you would accept. You say I have got wrong many times. . No I haven't I have made few forecasts  to you at least. I have never said, that Labour will do . I have only said and still do that it is my hope that Labour even if in coalition could still bring the Tories down.
I never told you Starmer, was a tactical genius, that's not even the sort of language I would apply to any politician. Most laughable is that I shouldn't lecture you, what the hell do you consider this response of yours to be. In fact in my contact with you most of your replies turn into extended lectures, taking up pages of space here. Not just for my benefit either.
It's obvious that for eleven years or so Labour, hasn't been able to get the better of the Tories at the ballot box.
But after the Tories , with massive media help had created the fiction of Labour , blame for a wide spread international banking crisis . It's been one crisis after another, and counting. There will come a breaking point, say what you will.
There is and as far as the horizon is set right now only two  viable alternatives to the mess overseen by this government, and they are . The Tories , get themselves involved in a complete rethink with new leadership.
Or an alternative that has to include the second biggest party by some way.
And that is why you are so completely anti what you like to call new Labour, Blairite Labour. Of course you would because even though your descriptions are faulty, it enables you to attack the millions of Labour voters, and they are there , that make up the second biggest group of votes in our system.
The bottom line is , they are the only hope for our democracy, I don't say democracy as a broad concept ,just ours. so don't get excited. As I see it that is why you are so dedicated in your attacks on anyone prepared to stick with it.

[Thomas]

For a number of reasons Labour, would have to inherit a complete breakdown to shift the Tories, a coalition is on though, but I'm afraid it would have to have Tories, in it to be effective. The reason being the Tories always have the real control in or out of government.

still laughing reading this . The new labour credentials keep shining though good old.

Two cheeks of the same tory backside , right wing red tory and small c blue tory .

As srb says , you are still punting the tired old tony blair political discourse from the late nineties. Crack on though dont mind me.

[papasmurf]

In hindsight, do you think the UK was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?

• 
  Right to leave
  67.2%
• 
  Wrong to leave
  32.8%

Link to that and when it was published please.

[Thomas]

Last of all did I not say I would not want or advocate a return, to the EU

In hindsight, do you think the UK was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?

• 
  Right to leave
  67.2%
• 
  Wrong to leave
  32.8%

poor auld keir good old.

I always say the same thing , all my life i have noticed , no matter what the subject (brexit scot indy 1979 devolution ref etc) labour are always on the wrong side of public opinion which is why they always seem to struggle at a GE.

We know best tories bad just doesnt cut it anymore mate.

Best GE poll bearing in mind the next uk GE is two years away , still doesnt show labour being able to command a majority government. At the moment polls are showing hung parliament , and i think the tories will recover to wipe labour off the political map in two years time , with again brexit being pro european starmers political achillies heel.

[Thomas]

I see the style never changes. Or the substance as it happens. It's not that you get it all wrong, just to many of the important factors. Of course I can be partisan ,where my country is concerned, without being partisan to a party

Im more in touch with uk politics than you. How many times recent years have you got it so so wrong?

You can't keep hiding behind corbyn as the base of all new labours woes. You told me starmer was a tactical genius who would over time take labour to power , and how many times have you been proved wrong?

Why lecture me about being partisan to a party? We are talking about the uk government at westminster , a de facto english parliament dominated by labour and conservative two parties i do not support in any way , and we are swapping opinions on them.

You supprot labour , and are without doubt despite protestations to the contrary partisan in support of them. Similarly , you are not partisan in supprot of your "country" , as you are fully behind the pro european new labour headed by quisling starmer.

No one wants Kier in power, No One? I have heard that a number of times concerning various Labour leaders in my life time it's never been totally true.

ok lets look at the political facts shall we?

New labour have been out of power for 11 years at westminster , and since 2007 in scotland. From 2010 to 2015 , you limped along under the leadership of starmers mate milliband , and suffered defeat after defeat , even to the point in 2015 , the liberals mocked you for your cowardly stance on a brexit referendum.

The left wing tried to take back their party from you under corbyn in 2015 , and for the next four years , new labour starmer and their supproters did everything they could to undermine the left of your party , so much so many new labourites did more pr damage to corbyn than the tories or snp.

The final insult was starmers disasterous generalship of labour party policy in 2019 , where you forced corbyn into a pro EU stance against the wishes of 60 % of labour constituencies in England , with predicatable consequences.

Once starmer was elected , and new labour back in control , starmer first big test was the hartelpool by election , which he failed misreably. Putting a pro european into a leave seat to test the water , and was smashed.

Despite all the issues and problems , especially covid , both the scottish government and english one have had , labour in scotland and england can not touch either government with  a bargepole.

The poll i gave you up the thread ha slabour bumping shoulders in scotland with the greens;D , and in England , within margin of error you cannot barely get above the tories  , certainly i havent seen one single poll where labour can command support in england to win any sort of majority to from a government.

These are the political facts of the matter 11 years after labour lost power , and so far , i am confident in saying no one wants starmer or new labour pro european centrists back in power.

When you win an election mate , come back to me , until then, its all hot wind from you good old and denial.

and you make the case for why I would urge a lack of it.

I refute your case and urge anyone to keep new labour out , if they dont want to be worse off and back in the EU.

There has been no one to surpass him in modern times.

Same was said about theresa may , worst pm in modern uk history. The empty platitudes get boring after a while.

Yet you recommend him to the nation

Nope dumb and dumber remember? Boris the former starmer the latter.?

We know that, but yer love putting your oar in ,don't yer.

A spade is a spade.

Deal with it.

I make no promise of the sky falling in with Brexit,

The party you support did. More of their remain lies , which is why i keep telling you you wont get back inot power anytime soon.

What i suspect will happen , just as you reappeared when you scented tory blood , you will dissappear when starmer loses the next GE.

As ever , we will have to teach you reality at the ballot box , until then , we have to listen to your delusions and false hopes.

I take it you were the same when you didn't vote for it?

Im a democrat , i accepted brexit .I also stand by the fact i told my fellows that while we remain in the uk , we get what england wants , hence my support for indy.

Up to date polls suggest more than a few are happy to prove you wrong, so  don't count your chickens .

oh please good old , not this again. There isnt a single poll that ha showed a majority labour government as far back as i can remember certainly not under starmer.

We have been hearing about this mythical silent majority now who are going to vote labour and put the pro europeans back in power for the last ten years or more.

The reality is the public are pissed off with covid and many other issues including the scottish and english governments , but no one is daft enough to want starmer and new labour back in power . I suspect boris is getting a slap on the wrist from tory voters to pul his socks up nothing more , but time will tell.

Last of all did I not say I would not want or advocate a return, to the EU.

The point is your party does , and we all know it. Its a millstone around your necks , and why i keep telling you half the popualtion in england , especially the english north , wont support you.

You wont listen though , so prepare for reality at the ballot box instead of delusion at polls.




Mod edit
Cromwell

[Thomas]

The same was true of Thatcher, but a time came when she became more of a liability than an asset. When that moment arrived they replaced her. That moment appears to have arrived for Boris. I don't know how people feel up there - you have your own administration after all - but down here public anger is intense and widespread. Even Tory MPs are speaking out. I think a tipping point has been reached.

But time will tell.

Fair point steve , but im not sure the political world or the tory party is in the same place as it was back then.

Im not at home at the minute , but the scottish dont need an excuse to be outraged at a uk pm. Especially a tory one ,so no different to normal to be fair.

This is what scotland voted for in 2014. Had we voted as i did , we could be sitting back eating popcorn at the minute watching all this enfold instead of getting worked up in faux outrage.

[Nick]

People who support sleaze and lies are a part of the problem. (Sorry T00ts)

The Tories suit my needs and I will continue to vote for them, show me and MP that doesn't tell lies? Personally I couldn't care less.